BAM!

In a couple of weeks my ex-bf (who I did not do TR with) wants to take me out to celebrate an achievement at work.

I am not sure of a location, or if this qualifies as a "date".

I am planning on doing TR with him from now on & at this point in time hopeful we get back together.

I want to choose something that can go both ways - date or non-date. Is taking a short ferry ride to a local island & going to the water too much? too date like?

Or, I'm thinking now, he should be the one making the plans?

Go to the top of the page and click on

u The Rules Support Group

Then go to the bottom of the list and click on

b Archives

Go to the thread names

b Engaged

and go to the first page and scroll through to post #9 (or there abouts)

b Kittychan
is the most amazing woman who was on these boards, did TR and got married to a man who she adores and who adores her.

Thanks your right he doesnt exist if he isnt doing anything to hammer it home to me that he does exist and wants to be a part of my life. Where can i get more info about the Husband Sun i tried to find the link you told me before and couldnt get it.

I'm sorry but I am not going to be much help with the one call for closure because it is a part of TR that I really don't agree with.

If you were hoping that he would ask you out again then it is not a call for closure it is a cry of 'Hello, here I am....still waiting for you!'. In my opinion, closure only comes from within, therefore there is no need to call the guy to seek affirmation.

But anyways, you called him, he suggested a drink and now has not contacted you, so what do you do?

My honest advice would be...

1) Start writing a diary, setting out your thoughts feelings and most importantly at least five things everyday that you are grateful for.

2) Start your husband sun, focus on all the positive NON-negotiable qualities that you require to make a relationship work. One way is to start with the deal-breakers and change them to positive values. This is always a work-in-progress to be altered and refined until you actually get married and can look at it and your husband and say 'wow, he fits!'

3) Start an exercise program

4) Start planning your week at least three days in advance - on Monday work out what you want to do on Thursday, Tuesday work out what you want to do on Friday etc

What should you do with regard to the ex? Nothing!! He does not exist until he has asked you out with date, time and place and turned up! The rest of your life starts now and he has not booked a place in it yet...His loss, you go and enjoy everything the world has to offer.

As a general rule, if you are not sure what to do, then do nothing!

Ok so i did the 1 call closure 4weeks ago. Now he has been in touch and asked me out for a drink (by text) i replied Sure when were you thinkin? No reply.....

Don't wonder about what he means - that will just get you all twisted up emotionally.

My understanding of the idea of 8 weeks without contact means that if you do see him or he calls you just have to be as brief as possible, upbeat and happy and very very busy.

In your case I would probably reply 'Yes, its been absolutely manic. I'd love to chat but I've got so many things to do. Take care, Bye'

If it is just a message on your answerphone, don't bother to reply. He'll call again if he wants to speak to you.

Thanks again leonette. I recently read GTID and the 8 weeks no contact. What if the guy contacts you within a week on a sat night (the night you always saw each other). But just says Hi just wondering how you are. Saturday nights are not the same now. Do i respond? and does he mean Sat nights are not the same without me or just cos hes working more and cant go out?

Hi honey, I don't think we had a WUMTHS thread here but there is one on the worldcrossing boards.

It was Suz with the takeaway guy - I have been in an exclusive relationship for 6 months.

b Suz

There are plenty of non-expensive dates you can go on without ending up at his if you don't want to get intimate. I always made sure that I did not end up at his place unless I was ready to get intimate because it is just so tempting to get carried away and I know I have weak control when it comes to wanting sex with a guy I fancy (blush!!).

However, my last boyfriend did cook me meals at his place before we had sex (he picked my up, drove me to his and then drove me home again) but I had already had the conversation with him about not feeling comfortable with having sex with him at that point in the relationship.

You could always say that you don't feel comfortable about being alone with him in his house yet.

PS Leonette,
I don't understand if you did go back t his place and things did get physical or if you didnt. I would read WHy Men Marry Bitches, first of all (not why men LOVE bitches, ehr newer one- saved my LIFE iin sitations like these!)

I might have said to him well we could start and grab a slice of pizza and see where the night takes us! )or "im so in the mood for pizza at a sleezy pizza place!") cuz you know he can afford pizzam at least! (and if he can't DUMP him real fast- he aint no man in my book!) or something like that- im sure there's a better way to say things but their place ALWAYS means intimacy, in my experience, i dont care how much will power ya got!

Does anyone know where the board went for WUMTHS (waiting until marriage to have sex!)

THANKS!

Also i was recently dating a guy and the first date was a night out, the second was a meal. Dates 3-5 were drinks at a local bar. Then he crashed his car and didnt have any spare money to the rest of the dates reduced to do you want to come over to mine and get takeaway food. I did this for a few weeks (were we not intimate) but should i have said something to stop the dates from ending up to casual?

I know that the BAM technique is not technically TR but it has been practiced by ladies on this site for many years.

As you are on the BAM thread I will give you BAM answer - no you don't have a date. When he asks you if you would like to do something on a particular day you should reply with something like 'What did you have in mind?' or 'What were you thinking of' all without saying anything that implies that you have agreed.

The object of BAM is to get a date, time and place before you consider that you have a date and finishing the conversation by saying 'Okay that's Friday at 7pm for dinner at Franky's'

Ladies

Whats your advice for a guy who says. Do you want to do something on x date. When i say sure what time he says i'll give your a phone on the day?

Do i assume i know ive a date on that day so just act as thou it going ahead or make or plans and say well you didnt give me a time even thou i knew the date?

Hey, I think you've answered your own question there.

He calls you in advance but you state "he asked me if we could go out a week in advance, but not a specific time...(or place, actually)."

Therefore it's up to you to BAM him in future. So the next time he tries to bookmark you, you need to give him the "what time did you have in mind, what shall I wear" spiel...

As for your impending bookmarked date, I would assume for yourself what time you think it will be, make other plans around it, and if he calls the day before/on the day, if it fits in with your other plans then fine, if not "oooh, I'd love to but I've got other plans at that time"...

Then get really strict...

Good luck!!!

Hello Spiller and Summerbreeze,

I've enjoyed reading Spiller's post about Forti's technique. I'll have to check out that link sometime, too.
I understand that if the guy doesn't specify one of these three: day/time/place then it's not really a date. I'm dating someone whose really good about asking me out regularly, and he shows a lot of interest, but I just read that an in-between phone call is not necessary. If an i=

Mailed you back sweetie!

You have mail.

Hi Summerbreeze, How was the date???? Spiller

Thanks Spiller - sorry boards didn't mean TR a waste of time just not feeling very cuaoish recently. Unpretty! anway date is still on - he has gone to a lot of trouble setting it up. See what happens!
Have a good day at work.

I just wanted to say 'sorry' about my regression to the pre-bam stuff (I mean even getting into a BAM! situation...a whole nother story!).

And I hope it isn't a downer regarding your upcoming date.

I remain confident in BAM! and Forti's Technique and The Lili Files and The Rules...

I didn't know that 'Forti's Technique' is attributed to a poster nicknamed 'Fortitude'...

"The best example of how to use Forti's technique is at this site I got from Girlracer many many posts back.

http://www.geocities.com/sapirit/TR/TRC1.html

I didn't realize that the name comes from a poster who called herself Fortitude and this is her anti-bookmarking technique."

If I can scrounge up some spare time I'd love to explore this link further. I find it comforting to know that I am not alone with my perseptions...namely there is a world of difference between a guy who hovers around and hints and bookmarks about dates and a guy who is a 'man with a plan' and envisions TR says 'looks forward to..') and plans and asks for a date...even if it is just frenchfries!

There is a great chapter in 'Closing The Deal' about distinguishing between a 'man with a plan' from 'other' types.

All in all, I feel the main thing is that pre-bam or during it, it is a tale-tell sign of the guy's level/depth of interest.

TR insists that that 'level' of interest pretty well has to be there from the first half hour...or all the rest is toast.

There's only so much you can do later in the game to re-vitalize that...re The Rules for Marriage or Getting Back an Ex etc...

I mean to say...I feel that BAM! is honourable and that even a Mr.Right might need it...

...and I'm glad if it meant a difference for you regarding this date for Saturday...

...and thanks for posting...

Nightshift...gotta go!

Spiller

Hi SB! Moonpies are men who keep coming back but never evolve...and the rlsp doesn't evolve. But it also means they look in love and act in love and adoring you but it never goes anywhere...

YES! I know what you mean. I met a guy I actually liked (as a person) and we did some stuff together and one day we had a coffee at his place at it was one room with three foot deep stuff...including stuff like hundreds of saved yogourt tubs etc. He obviously didn't cook food...his sink was full of newspapers and magazines!

It was terrible! It didn't take long to discover that this guy's mind and heart and body were just as cluttered and confused...CLOGGED!

He has a great smile but then what?

When we had an icecream I had to pay my own.

I agree with you...it is important to direct energy into other things aswell.

Back to work!

I WISH YOU A WONDERFUL DATE!

Spiller

Spiller - it was through a newspaper add (btw) I just "bammed" him into a time - reply as I write - date still on. My ad has been running for about 6 weeks, averaging 2 replies per week mostly older men or just lame.

Honestly Spiller - sometimes I just go,go,go and look good and smile and don't chase. I turn heads, but that is as far as it goes. I wonder if it's me sending out wrong signals and I don't even know it. Mostly I come home and just feel drained, exhausted and look at the ZERO messages on my ansaphone over weekend and just wonder WTF is it all about?

Sometimes I feel I am just wasting my time with all this - maybe I should put my energy into something that has a better chance of getting actual results like education, house improvements/buying, retreats whatever. My life is so geared up to putting myself where I think eligible men will be and when I go - well same old story. A good night recently is that a man that usually looks like he slept in a hedge might just flirt with me and ya know I'm sure he thinks I am grateful for this attention. Men are beginning to make me yawn.
Good thing: I'm (hopefully) selling my little house, and moving up a notch to a better one.
What are moonpies BTW?

Hey Summerbreeze! I go 'mmmm' too!

On Friday I bumped into a 'hopeless' downtown and....as usual...he asked 'Are ya home later today?' (He's been doing THAT for three years now!'

I said 'Yes, I'll be at home later today but some other time K?'

This confused the poor chap.

I added a bit about my fantstic weekend plans...rain or shine.

He said he would call Sunday (if the weather is nice) about perhaps meeting up at a street festival.

I just said 'Hey great, oh gosh, look at these approaching rain clouds, gotta go!'

I ASK YOU SB! From this little exchange would you guess that he called or not?

What would Mr.Right have done?

Mr.Right would 1. Not have waited until he bumps into you once a year downtown. 2. Mr.Right would not have wanted to have a 'coffee' right than and there OR later the same day...because Mr.Right also makes his plans for Fri,Sat and Sunday by Wednesday! 3. Mr.Right may have manipulated all his plans and called to inquire/confirm if you were serious by Saturday eve (re Sunday)!

PLUS! Mr.Right will pursue a Miss Right who has a full life seeking fullfillment and wants a piece of that action. Mr. Wrong resents and pouts and doesn't call when Miss Right goes ahead in seeking fullfillment with or without him.

Mr.Wrong doesn't want to participate in Miss Right's quest for fullfillment because he is only able to concern himself with his own.

And ANY of this mutual consenting stuff is even worse.

If we want 'I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine' affairs, these are a dime a dozen. All you get is people keepig score.

TR say that Mr.Right is not afraid to risk embarrassment, calling too often or dial-a-bouquet or whatever...

...he tries to troubleshoot your favorite music, food, colour....and REACH you...

...and he hopes you won't notice that he is shy, unemployed, recently divorced, short or working a 80 hour week...

...he might even ask you to forgive him in advance...

I cannot, for the life of me, imagine Mr.Right asking me 'Are ya home later today/tonight?'

I find it increasingly helpful to imagine (and enjoy doing so) what Mr.Right would do and say.

Mr.Right would call and say 'I saw you downtown. What a nice new bike! Looking good! I've got your number here. Do you still like 'Italian' the best? Can I treat you, maybe next week? I hope I'm not intruding, you are probably busy?'

So, I mean to say, a ton of these situations don't even get as far as BAM!...never mind TR!

It freaks me out when I think of how much time, manicures etc I had put into the slightest show of interest.

Instead of twenty bucks for a manicure etc, it feels great to put that money and feeling and heart towards 'screening' and sharpening my intuition and awareness...discretion!

It freaks me out when I look back and see how generous I was when there was so little there. As if I might have 'inspired' some kind of momentum!

BAH! HUMBUG!

My feeling is that Mr.Rights will have already decided they want a marrriage material girl before they even leave the house...and its my part to be that before I leave the house as well!

The rest is a ton of pain and nonsense.

I don't want to meet a guy by chance and then we 'figure out' what its gonna be by trail and eror.

And after a year or three or five, go figure some more....

And if, as it seems to me, that such a man is an absolute delusion of mine...some freak of the imagination...so be it!

I swear...I am finding more connection, comfort and vitality in these goals than in actual social contact with 'men' who would like to sell me on less, less, less!

What I hate most is these guys that KNOW such values and pretend them until they get you in bed and then pull the big 'variations' of different kinds of relationship hogwash...including (he crosses his fingers, the polygamy thing)...

Or the 'Discovery Channel Mammals' thing...

And I foot the bill!?

Outta here, outta here, ouuta here!

Its my part to 'screen' this stuff even before BAM!

I'm a bit out of the loop Summerbreeze! I'm curious what 'amounted' to your having a date this Saturday???? Please tell!

Spiller

Hi Spiller - I do love your meditatative posts. I always sorta go mmmm... when I read them (if that makes sense). WLMB book talks about cutting off the water -not that many are drinking at my well at the mo but I could practice on the cute hoverers (I think moonpies and hoverers are the same) those who look when you walk into the room, or chat to you sometimes in a tone that makes me think that something is developing and then ya turn round and they are chatting/hovering around some other girl. So frustrating. Anyway I have a dinner date next Saturday - I don't think he is the love of my life but it's a date with a nice (I hope) guy and my first one in a year - feel sorta happy bout it.

Hi Lumhoney!

I scramble to post regularly...at BAM! and TR Ex and SALON Cantina. Thanks for asking!

To be honest I found that my focus on nurturing the CUAO in me sometimes means...not being at the computer/rules board.

Its a bit like going 'on strike' and squashing my heart and brain into ANY direction other than 'romance'.

And I have found it pays off.

But...all the while...wow...BAM stories galore!

DOOZERS!

I don't seem to be getting any dates by using BAM! but it feels damn good to be not wasting time, heart and mind on any trial and error system!

Its a gas to be seeking fullfillment and not 'settling'!

Seeking fullfillment is so much more fullfilling than hours upon hours...years upon years...of that hokuspokus translating business with 'hopefuls'.

CRIPES! Professional prostitutes get paid UPFRONT and the guy can delight in that...a whole hour even beforehand!

FROM NOW ON...since about two years...I'm looking for a guy who will 'pay' upfront!

No more song and dance from me! I go about my business...jeans and nailpolish...and don't do BOTH his job and mine!

I just got so sick of 'helping' a guy to notice me, ask me out, plan and look forward to a date...

The guys I work with rail me! They say I am 'VICTORIAN' and 'FRIGID!' because I don't chase men!

They are GOOFS! They are pissed off that the can't get me into bed...and they are bored!

I had one guy call me at 7am to whimper that he had consented to a two week tropical hoilday with his 'girlfriend.'

It was three hours before the airport and he was a grovelling, sniveling mess.

Panicked!

He was horrified!

On bended knee!

But, alas, he just couldn't seem to plan or ask me out for a date! He'd call three times a week and strut his chittychat and flirts like there is no tommorrow...but couldn't ask if I like icecream or 'italian' or wanna see the meteor shower from a local mountain top...or if he could spring for the babysitter...

NO! He can, atmost, only marvel at my freedom and immunity to the 'settling' that he and his girlfriend and most others live out day after day to no end.

I think it is very important not to give 'fixes', In GTID, the author says that even letting him hear you on the phone for a few minutes gives him 'a fix' and he can stay away longer.

Thats what they do! They stay away as much and long as humanly possible! Thats what they do!

Evan Mr.Right will feel obliged to do that!

A milliom chitchats, sms, machine nessages (including outgoing messages), tentative dates or even REAL meetings for existance stuff...its ALL little 'fixes' that oppress a man's GUNG HO.

The TRick is to truly walk, leave the guy in the dust...but to TRuly do that a woman has to 'seek fullfillment' instead.

'Seeking fulllfillment' can feel lame but is is ten times more interesting than 'settling.'

'Seeking fullfillment' expands one's resources...fitness, concentration, finances, healing, romantic fantasy and LONGING.

LONGING IS GOOD! WISHING IS GOOD!

'Settling' is like overspending and pure RISK. It can also be detrimental and deplete resorces...its expensive!

I can't afford that! Mr.Right would flaunt his interest in boosting my resoucres...not depleting them!

Miss Right sets the parameters of the deal. Her cards are on the table! She 'flaunts' her cards! Her 'needs' are very real.

I tried once to want something else and need something else. It didn't work!

If you are rather not overtly going for it then he can't feel like he does it for ya!

I'M ON STRIKE!?

Yours truly, Spiller! : )

This would be my ideal scenario of being asked out on a date:

Him: So are you still keen on catching up this week?

Me: Catching up sounds fun. Have a great day :)

Him: Well how about so and so day?

Me: (If I am free and he has asked in advance) Sounds perfect. I look forward to it :)

OR

Him: When are you free to catch up/when is good for you?

Me: After work and weekends are good.

Then he suggests a day and I accept or decline.

My question is....

Is it ok to say for eg, ''Friday sounds perfect. What did you have in mind?''

Lets assume he has just asked for a date/catch up but hasnt specified what he would like to do, is it ok for me to ask what he has in mind or do I wait for him to put that forward along with a time?

Also, when you receive texts from a man regarding date plans, can you respond promptly or will you have to wait 24 hours between EACH text?

Say for example it is the scenario that I stated above.

Thanks for the HUGS Mulhoney!

I NEED HUGS FROM MY GREAT SISTERS!

Spiller

Hi GRLZPWR!

At TR INDEX you can find some abbreviations...I copied Browneye's List for you!

TR INDEX is for collecting actual quotes with eaxact references/credits from ALL these amazing resources going on here!

Please feel free to add stuff to TR INDEX!

ABBREVIATIONS

BAM - Forti's Technique of getting specifics for a date before saying yes.

BF - Boyfriend also GF - Girlfriend

BOB - Battery Operated Boyfriend

CUAO - Creature Unlike Any Other, a term coined in the Rules books.

DZ - Date Zero, the first time you meet an online suitor

E&S - Ellen and Sherrie, the authors of the Rules Books

GTID - Getting To I Do, a book by Patricia Allen

IRL - In Real Life

ILY - I Love You

IMHO - In My Humble Opinion, also IMO

L&B - Light and Breezy

LD - Long Distance also LDR - Long Distance Relationship

LMD - Last-Minute Date

LOL - Laughing Out Loud

LTR - Long-term Relationship

MIA - Missing In Action

MVOAD - Mars and Venus On A Date, a book by John Gray

OLD - On Line Dating

PBT - Pretzel Brain Twist, when you twist your brain into a pretzel thinking about some guy

RG - Rules Girl

RLSP - Relationship

ROFL - Rolling On Floor Laughing

ROTFLMAO - Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off

TOTLA - The Technique of the Love Affair, a revived book from early 20th century by a "gentlewoman" or Doris Langley Moore

TR - The Rules

WMLB - The book "Why Men Love Bitches"

PP - Peter Pan the eternal boy

Hi Girlracer! Ya, me too! I liked the part in the beginning...where the checklist is...about how if your car broke down and you purposefully don't call your boyfriend and try to get through it all on your own...how that isn't feminine!

Thats would I would have done and did for years.

GTID taught me to ask and not try to wing it all on my own and to accept and enjoy 'receiving.'...but also to keep wishing and longing and openly searching connection and fullfillment (without chasing ofcourse!)...

Its like being available without being a doormat!

WHOOPPEE!!!!!

Spiller

I especially enjoyed the explanations of the feminine and masculine energies.

Really enlightening.

Hi Mulhoney! BAM! is not my invention. The origins come from years of posts about the trials and tribulations of not getting bookmarked...and not pursuing men. In that we refered alot to the Lili Files and her take on it called 'Forti's Technique'. BAM! explores that technique and honours it and us too!

I find BAM! doubles as something I can do in my thick brain for myself also...not just in direct communication with a man!

I have followed thr TR for 'getting back an ex' outlined in TR #2...some years ago. IT WAS VERY EXCITING!

I used GTID specifically in combination with that.

The focus is on being able to walk...always able to walk and beefing up your own desires and intuition. GTID is a book called 'Getting To I Do' which is most famous for its 'Eight Week Wait'. It is also famous for insisting/encouraging a masculine/feminine dynamic...vs. becoming 'one of the boys' etc.

Her masculine/feminine dynamic is NOT gender specific. It could be a same sex rlsp aswell.

There are several points in GTID that are argued about here as not being TR but I myself never found anything but complimentary info to TR.

The funny thing is that both books were written and published at the same time. This explains why neither TR or GTID refer to eachother exactly or use the exact same thought.

After TR was published, over the years, many new dating and relationship books refer to TR, directly for or against. So you can decide for yourself.

The absence of reference and use of the exact same language between TR and GTID is not because they differ or compete but simply because they were being written at the same time without exposure to eachother.

Because of that I find it remarkable how very similar they are!

I think GTID and MANY other authors are a great supplement to TR.

Lili of the Lili Files focussed on the work of Herb Goldbberg. He wrote 'What Men Really Want' and she had counselling with him. Their focus was on empowering the woman through her developing her own responsibilities..for herself and the relationships.

Her Forti's Technique (BAM!) is rooted in exactly that! A woman taking responsibility for her search for fullfillment and how she prepares her weekends and dates. Having a guy say 'I'll give ya a call on the weekend' and she sitting at home waiting for a call that may or may not occur is NOT taking responsibility!

Not agreeing to a vague suggestion of a date is responsible! This 'responsibility' is the springboard for romance and connection.

For 'getting back an ex' I feel ALL this stuff helps. The thing to watch out for though, you might notice, is that you won't want the former relationship! You will be unable to go back to GOO LAND!

Your desire, interests and needs get boosted at the same time and he comes back to a raised bar and your needs and lifestyle will have changed.

Some ex's just want to go back to how things were...perhaps the convenient unrulsey rlsp! You may have to choose between going back to the old routine or if you want to hold out for something new/more.

TR reminds us that there would be a reason it didn't work out in the first place and just because a guy 'comes back' is no indication of a new rulsey or more fullfilling rlsp!

In my case it felt like a breakthrough but he quickly sneaked into the original ambivalence. I was able to respond to that, within my own heart and mind...and body/sex...very quickly and clearly and GOT OUT before I got all in again!

I think if you see an ex that it has to be BOOTCAMP. TR also says you must be EXTRA STRICT with an ex.

It means being extra strict with yourself!

I would do it...as research!

I would take great care to avoid oxytocin stimulation. Thats when stupid things like the smell of his shirt or a little freckle on his ear send you reeling. You have to be able to love with your heart and sex hormones but also with your head!

The oxytocins send a message to the brain that all is well and lovely and sweet and luxurious...like endorphins which are a pain reliever. And then, in his absence you experience withdrawel and those hormones send a message to the brain to call and help the pair stay together.

We can develop this bond with Mr.Wrong just as well as Mr.Right. The passionate feelings are NOT any indication of the quality or fullfillment of the relationship!

You can feel such passion and not be able to match it with an actual shared lifestyle. That hurts!

TR suggest holding out for this passion PLUS a shared lifestyle (ie.proper dates!).

I wish you a great journey!

Love Spiller

PS. If you ask at SALON, I am sure someone would send to the Lili Files.

Hi Grrr!

I also read that 'Butterflies (real ones) are the first creature to leave a bad environment.' They are the first to sense very subtle disturbances...

Another amazing thing is how they can cross the himilayas...

I live near a butterfly sanctuary. Its so amazing to visit there.

I find you sooo smart to be 'dating' and keeping things moving.

I have a hectic day, gotta go!!

Love Spiller

Hello Spiller! Things have been crazy for me here. I love the rules! You give such fantastic advice too - I am glad you think it is okay to personalize the Rules. It is exactly like a diet - you have to be strict most of the time to see any results, but there are times you can allow yourself a little freedom.

I looooove "inner puke." I used it today and my friend thought it was hilarious too! Thanks!

So yes. Mr. Lukewarm is sooo lame! He called at 10:48 that night and left a message apologizing for the time and saying we should talk the next day. I didn't call him the next day, then left him a message the day after that while he was at work. He emailed back! No answer from me. Then he texts me on Friday afternoon to see if I am going out tonight. Whatever. Now he has emailed me THREE times after I said I wasnt into email. No response for you buddy! Figure it out!

On a better note, I have a Sat date tonight, the other boy from last weekend has been texting (i give him 1 a day)(grr ask me out already!)and I met another man who took my number last night. So as irritated as I am with Mr. Lukewarm, it feels good to be getting attention elsewhere.

You are right. I am starting to sniff out the losers immediately though!

I have been making my good girlfriend take some Rules advice... and it is finally getting into her head. Thank god! Beautiful girl - needs to start acting like a dream girl!

She is in an on/off relationship that started SEVEN years ago. At first she was spending every other night at his place. He even said to her the other day, "If you sleep over at my place all the time how will I ever want to marry you?"
We as friends all advised her to NEVER sleep over at his place again.
He is pulling the whole, "act like an ass so she will break up with me" thing. I gave her WMLB and she has been using some of the techniques and thinking about the concepts more. It is almost like seeing the lightbulb come on in someone's head. Wake up! You are better than this!!!

It is nice that she is on board with the whole rules thing more and more. Rules friends rock!

At brunch today I was telling her the "we are happy butterflies that only stop and play with flowers that make us happier. If something makes us unhappy - we just flit and float away and never think about it again." And RIGHT after I said the word "butterfly" a Monarch flew directly over our table! It was amazing and we had a good laugh.

A good omen!

XO
Girlygurrl

...continued...

You were 'receptive' and he went weird.

I would suggest something similar to the GTID eight weeker or the TR four weeker.

These require a closure attempt in which you leave him with a crystal clear indication of what is required/expected. And then you sit back, way way back, get on with your life and look forward to hearing from him. At four to eight weeks if he cannot deal with that and calls but ignores it or continues to skirt around it...its OVER!

With TR they do not specify what speech is involved. They just say 'shake things up' and 'don't be as available' for four weeks and 'see what happens'.

GTID and 'Closing The Deal' suggest 'leaving' him with some facts/material. In Closing The Deal' he encourages expressing your optimism first (in person, all dolled up!) and a tad of your frustration with his 'ambivalence' and a request for a 'seperation' for yourself and an expression of willingness to connect with him again...if YOU are still single, which you do not intend to be, in the event that he misses you!

Its a big deal! He calls it 'The Bluff'. It means 'We are getting married or I am leaving' and then you are gone! It means 'I am not hanging around for this shit!, I am searching fullfillment!' It means 'I can't settle and I am capable of more...and so are you!'

He gives a guy a year to act silly in response to 'The Bluff'.

In all cases however, TR, GTID, VM and this one it is imperative that he initiates seeing eachother again.

All in all the bottom line, as you also expressed, is your own inner resolve. We are so used to being co-operative and friendly and generous and openminded and flexible and resilient that we forget our original impulse, hope and passion.

Fortunately we can fullfill our longings with all sorts of relationships and activities. It is scientificaly proven that women can experience even sexual fullfillment 'adjacently'.

Thats what he needs to be introduced to or reminded of. Ofcourse we need to tap into this ourselves as well!

Thats the biggee!

If you don't he won't!

He can't play 'catch up' or 'step up' if you are not slipping through his fingers!

On another note...isn't 'inner puke' great! I love it!

Bootcamp is hard. Bootcamp won't wait much for a guy to sort things out. I'm not for waiting indefinetly but I will take the initiative to make closure, say something about why I am moving on and GO!

I have found that this sort of 'closure' is a comfort four to eight weeks later in the ABYSS of longing and the PBT that can occur about what he may have meant...what I shared or not...

It is a stop/check that keeps you from wanting to call and check if you were clear or not for him and the proverbial impulse that there may have been a misunderstanding!

I mean..you cannot truly do an eight weeker, a four weeker or even play 'hard to get' if you don't put the ball in his court.

Right, ug, ALL my ex does is call and spring instantly into relationship talk. I soooo clearly left him with 'the ball in his court' that it is literally all he can do.

There is no small talk anymore. After 'hello' he says 'I'm still single are you?' He says 'Its a nightmare out here!' He says he is kicking himself for leaving me and wonders if we can go back!'

When he says 'go back' he means straight to the point where I expresed 'We're getting married or I am leaving.'

He wants to go back to that exact point!

I pushed this all so far that he has to propose over the phone before I would even meet with him...and he is considering it!

He has called several times in the last TWO YEARS to check if I really mean it!

I gotta run. Yes, the Thirdage Homepage is free and there is great instruction for setting it up. "High5" is there too for online communication/help.

About which board...I post extremely sporatically at all the titles. I have a extremely hectic/intense lifestyle and never quite know what I am doing day by day...over the years...

I would suggest making 'Let him go!' into 'Let him shine'!

Yes, no more emails back. It was dump of him to acknowledge you don't like emails and then include questions.

A social worker told me that children will 'try' or 'check' the exact same condition up to one hundred times before embodying it!

Thats cool up to five years old but it gets old!

That is NOT romantically fullfilling with an adult male!

GTID says that a man cannot fall in love with a woman that is not, first, in love with herself!

Its worth it!

Love Spiller

Hi Grrr! Interesting eh? You had mailed 'I have no preference about which day and how was your weekend?' and TYPICAL male can only answer one of the questions in there!

Coincidentally he can blend questions but surely only means one!

'Can I call you Friday night, did you work today? How's your car running?' (This is hinting at a date!)

That would be another good note for BAM!...that we only say one thing at a time! Like, 'Sounds nice, which day?'
and not add stuff like...

'Sounds nice, gee, ya, I love Indian food (my sister just got back from India) and unfortunately I don't know if I have to work on Saturday because my boss has athritis problems, but last Saturday I didn't. Do you have sisters and brothers? But if you call me Saturday morning I can tell you. Or Sunday or Friday, I'm here all day, no probs! Do you like birdwatching? So which day?'

I practise alot. If you look you can see that almost anything anyone ever says could easily be answered with one of the three gems. It is fun to see how responses differ so much with clear, direct asking as opposed to meandering conversation.

Like, a colleague asks for tools/materials and I say 'Now?' instead of 'Ya, okay!' It firms up connection!

For extra practise I joke around with BAM! too. My favorite is answerring a totally innocent question like 'Will you have that work ready by Wednesday?' and I say 'What should I wear?' like joking flirting!

I have one guy at work...a giant type...who scolds me in a teasing way every chance he gets. One day he grumbled 'You dripped paint!' and I put out my hand very victorian for him to kiss!

I just got so sick of being brain and tongue tied in the middle of being with a guy...like turning all jelly and dizzy. So I had to practise just saying BAM! stuff aloud. I hadn't known there is a whole world out there of responsiveness!!

Its also such a great way to clear up instantly if a person is just blowing hot air. Men esepecially seem to make closure to dates or phone calls with semi sincere phrases like 'Great, see ya, I'll give ya call next week' or 'See ya, I'll try to call on the weekend.' or 'Maybe Saturday then, bye.'

For that stuff, if it is before Wednesday I do BAM! If it is Wednesday or after I just say 'Ya, K!' and I am totally unreachable until Sunday night.

Many, many times my ex muttered such cheery closures on a Wednesday and his calls always came in on Saturdays, even at 8pm, with no answer (and no machine or email or mobile phone!) leaving him wondering how I could have possibly not known he would call on Saturday about Saturday!

It took a hundred Monday calls of me saying 'Huh? Oh I'm so sorry I didn't know!'

In the second year of seeing my ex I never saw him for six weeks at a time during bootcamp and BAM! because it took so much repetition of my being nowhere on the planet Friday through Sunday and not accepting a cheapo weeknight date.

One fine day he started asking on Monday or Tuesday, lucky to have reached me, about the weekend and KNOWING if he didn't set it then he might not see me for three weeks.

During all that I was doing all kinds of wonderful 'wellbeing' stuff including other dates!

Like I wrote about doing both...being strict but also loving and passionate and spontaneous during a date...he had to put two and two together. When we did see eachother I was very romantic. I was only romantic in person! I didn't call him or suggest dates or call after dates. It was as if outside of actually being together in person there was nothing! All he had to do was organize our time together or not!

I didn't give him any little fixes as GTID calls it...where he gets to hear your voice on his machine or yours, or a little email, and as she says, he gets to stay away longer!

She says you have to let the rubberband stretch. If the last he heard of you was a crystal clear, simple question about which day, time and place he can salvage it.

GTID says that her couples stay together because it is clear what is expected. No expectations or requirements leave a couple swimming in circles. The female can take the initiative to have requirements.

(By the way my version of male/female dynamic is not gender specific! I agree with GTID that both genders can enjoy 'masculine' or 'feminine' natures.)

Intersting that Lukewarm seems to have become comatose regarding 'the date' in his email. Intersting eh? that when you used a 'I don't...' phrase (I don't have a preference...) it tuly leaves him with something to do...yet he doesn't do it!

GTID suggests being alert to signs that a man has weak impulses to PROVIDE and IMPRESS with his solutions!

If he ignores the 'opportunity' OR tries to criticise/argue that your question is invalid...GET OUT!

I picture it as my cat bringing me a mouse! If the guy isn't bringing you mice he is not your man!

GTID says Mr.Right will respond either right then and there (delighted with himself) or INQUIRE!

A lack of inquiry on his part is a giant REDFLAG.

The loophole is that he may have to go away, cave, brood etc before he responds. Meales are famous for coming back with solutions!

TR and GTID and Venus and Mars and all other courtship books I have read ALL agree that males feel first then think later. They all encourage females to sit back when he is 'thinking/solving' but they also say that you mustn't stop living and you must keep living and searching fullfillment while he is off doing that. Its his risk!

Its mean! Your guy goes fishing and then, when you fill him in he waffles! What a brat!

If he doesn't call or email with reference to 'cooking, tennis or movie' with a DAY in the next two weeks he is DUMB!

You put your neck out quite far enough. I wouldn't give an inch further. It has nothing to do with how you feel about him! He can wonder that all he wants! Its none of his business!

...continued...

Apparently Mr. Lukewarm was out of town last weekend. The weekend was, "over the top" YAWN! One of the boring things he told me in his, "Im sorry for emailing" email. EMAIL! Inner puke!!

Spiller, again, You are going to be my dating guru! I will mesh the dating perfection world with mine. Oh YES, It will be mine. I will find my perfect husband!
You will find your perfect husband!

I LOVED the collages. Totally inspired me to make one. I actually do something similar! I cut out pictures that inspire me to work out, to travel, to fall in love and I post them around my apartment. I love the collage thing though. it makes it superpersonal and is a fantastic way to meditate on what it is you want... from the soul out into the material world. Hee hee. Very "The Secret" too!

I loved your advice. I have been hanging out in bootcamp, and I think it is helpful definitely, but the GTID is also really enlightening. I like that you blend them.... It seems like GTID is the rational and the reasons behind TR. I am sooo ordering copies of GTID for my mom, sister and friend!

Everything is starting to make sense now! I was raised to be more masculine... but I was not happy in that role. Now that I have been embracing my femininity I am happier, more peaceful and loving than ever.

So back to Mr. Lukewarm. He emailed back a short comment about jeans or something. LAME LAME LAME! After reading GTID... I wrote back, "It was really nice meeting you and going out! But like I said before, email isnt really my thing."

He wrote right back in 10 minutes, "Sorry about the email - I'll call you in a bit." and asked me some questions but I am not responding to ANYTHING over email with him again. I feel that he is slacking, and it is time to let him go.

It is D5 with no sex.. both of us had 13 days out of country alternately, so that has prolonged the dating time frame.

One guy who took my number called again and we have a dinner date for saturday!! Yay. He was fishing for days, I did BAM and he responded perfectly. He seemed a little surprised I said yes when he asked for Sat. Good - keep him nervous!

The other guy from the weekend has texted me, so I will text back L&B tomorrow.

So... what board do you go on? Do you have a man? I read some of your posts from 2004.. and will keep reading. Is the thirdage website free? So cool! It looks so beautiful. I am so inspired!

Ahhh. This place feels like home.

That is also really kick-arse about the convo with your ex. I LURVE it when they want you back... or when you can tell their little man brains are fantasizing about how wonderful, exciting and CUAO you are... which it sounds like your ex was. hahahaha

Now... GTID until bedtime! I swear I will read it in 2 days!

...continued...

I like best the TR that says 'Hold out!' Just fucking 'hold out' for the relationships that honour us...our feelings, our love and desire, hopes, fantasy and longing and curiousity...'

Its all about being right there in the middle of a crush and fantasy but being able to 'hold out!'

Thankyou so much for your compliments! Yes! We are new best friends! I love it!

Hey Grrr! If you double click on my nickname you get taken to my thirdage homepage...with my TR collages. You might like these pictures?

I admire you!

Love Spiller

Hi Grrr!

I feel that your response to Lukewarm was ideal, particularly because it used a 'I don't...' phrase.

When in doubt I always use I 'I don't...' phrase.

I don't know, or I don't feel, or I don't think etc.. feel way better than upfront 'I think, I feel, I know, I want etc phrases.

I think it is because when a guy hears what you don't know, like, want etc he gets to work and solve and come back with something. Its a feel good thing!

And don't freak! A few sentences about your weekend is 'nice' without overdoing it!

I was on the phone with my ex this afternoon (ten whole minutes!). He asked if I had been at the big street festival in my neighbourhood on Sunday. I wasn't so I told him about how I had been 'forest climbing' on Sunday.

(Forest climbing is a new trend here. A small piece of forest is all rigged up with rope bridges etc throughout the treetops. You go up with harnesses and security belts etc. Its wonderful! One of your cables has wheels to hook up for zipping through the forest!)

Anyways, I just embellished a bit on that. While I was doing that I could feel him just taking in the sound of my voice and my enthusiasm...and a bit chatty but it gave him TIME to brood throughout about HIS next move!!!!!

In reading GTID there is an interesting point...that although we don't swamp a man with too much talk and discussion and we train in conecting with our female friends, and we don't lament with a male or nag....it does say that 'presenting' him with certain questions in a clear way is GOOD. She explains that it is 'narcissistic' to not express your desires. And how he responds to even tiny needs is helpful/crucial in feeling out what his interests are.

She emphasizes, like TR, that he can and loves to solve, solve, solve and come back with all sorts of goodies...for YOU!

Venus and Mars adds that he may appear perplexed or pull back when something is required...and my go to his 'cave' to brood/solve.
He says to sit tight and do not follow a man to his cave or you will be burned by the dragon!

GTID suggests expressing yourself and then waiting it out.

I mean to say that being a RG, for me, is not about having no desires, needs, hopes, interests or a crush feeling or longing or a need to know what is going on. Alot of RGs find success/relief in feeling less of all that. My 'relief' has been in feeling more of all that juicy stuff but, rather, in 'negotiating' it better.

There are parts of GTID that I found very helpful for the HOW of it all.

GTID and TR talk about being able to switch...for example from tired work day and clothes/looks to energized and dolled up.

You can be 1000% available during a kiss/sex and then 'switch' to being DRY when it comes to his setting a date.

You can be light and breezy ans spontaneous during a date but be a control freak about your precious freetime when he alludes to a date on the phone/email.

Another funny thing I read, in What Men Really Want', is that very sincere men that are in love and are trying hard will often end up 'asking you out' in a very stilted, awkward, stiff manner.

He says this can seem very strange and unromantic for a woman. She might have a gut feeling that it is overly formal and fake and not genuine. He appeals to women to understand!

He also suggests that women develop discretion in expressing reasonable needs in rather bite size pieces for traumatized males!

Women are multi-taskers! We can do a hundres things all at the same time and even be talking about three differént things simultaneously. Men are more tunnel vision. He asks us to understand this 'bite size' thing.

He says men long for credit and reward and approval and acceptance with the single tasks they succeed in...like laying railway track.

I'm saying all this to encourage us in doing BAM! and making this cultural experience of being 'asked out' as clean as a whistle...both ways!

If we don't PEEP about day, time and where then he won't.
If he looks to you for how it is suppose to work thats GOOD!
But you have to have that under your belt...in your soul like you said!

So yes, you are available and recptive should he step up.

I suspect that date five was weird because everything goes so fucking fast these days. If it goes past a one night stand and heads into three whole dates people start to get confused. Is it three dates because it takes that long to score (as opposed to a mutual one night stand) or is she falling in love with me or will I have to tell my girlfriend/wife about this? or can I afford this with no payback, when is the payback???? All sorts of confusion.

Maybe your guy has certain personal expectations about a certain amount of scoring at a certain point...out of routine...the way he understands it to go...if he is lucky???

Maybe he was nervous because you are an RG (despite a little unrulsey?) and only has experience with doormats!?

The men in my life seem to have only had one or the other type of relationship...first true love or just casual sex.

When they cannot place you straight away they can hope for the doormat thing ofcourse, but if its not that they get 'nervous'.

Even Mr.Right will hope for the doormat verion most at first. Thats my opinion.

Keep em guessing Grrr!

RGs don't say the M word. We don't initiate relationship discussions and we don't plan dates! We don't bake cakes and so on...

He's confused! When he has casual sex he gets greeting cards and gifts and calls! When she is marriage material she dates others! He is totally confused!

Another book, Getting To Committment, talks about not worrying about the sex part and especially, not using it as a bargaining tool. He writes about TR relationships backfiring after marriage...when sex with eachother became 'ruled' by her.

I'm into a HYBRID version of TR, I think?

...continued...

...continued...

I'm so grumpy I could cry!

I better go!

To finish up here I would say that a weekday date request is perfectly acceptable when he directly has a date plan with a specific day. That is different! For example, if he asks if you would like to go with him to Badminton held on a Tuesday night (and a drink with friends after) THAT is different. That is a proper asking out.

I hope you will tell me what you decide and experience!

Love Spiller

Hi GRRR!

Hmmm? I'm such a grump about this stuff. I don't have a different routine in mind for first time being asked out, after four dates or after three months, or even in a relationship or engaged or reconciling!

The response 'Sounds like fun!' is saying 'yes' before you have the day, time and activity clear. Until the date is truly set it is now a 'bookmark'.

In the book GTID she writes a mantra, 'I will never give first to a male under five years old.' meaning the male must pay first.

Responding cheerfully, no questions asked, leaving yourself in the dark is you paying/working first...and it is a form of 'helping a man to ask you out' because you are expressing your availability throughout...from now, all day today and the next...all the way across the next few days (weekend included)...and maybe even through to next weekend if needs be...and so on...

Being that available is 'helping' a man to ask you out properly! A NO NO!

In a tight situation you can better say what you don't want. 'How sweet, sounds like fun, not Friday!'

(Here you have not said YES without having a day set...so it is not a bookmark. It is left that you might see eachother IF a day is set.)

The BAM! I do is I will ask which day three times max. If he still hasn't uttered one I give up.

With your post I am not clear. It seems you had no date over the weekend because he is asking you how your weekend was. It seems that he asked too late and you waited 24 hours to answer an email...so next thing ya know the weekend is passing and on a Sunday, instead of seeing eachother, he is asking you about the week...hmmm???

FISHY!

Was he skipping a weekend date with you? TR talks about a man starting to skip a Saturday date here and there as 'he's starting to misbehave.'

NO, squashing in a weeknight date to make up for a skipped weekend is not what you want!

My ex would do that! After the perfectly courteous first four dates...Saturdays and dining and dancing...first kisses etc...he abruptly tried ONE switch to a late Tuesday date after his work.

I had thought it meant weekends and a weeknight bonus, how nice! But it meant 'How bout Tuesdays and Thursdays AFTER his work and hobbies INSTEAD of weekends!'

As in...lets be lovers but lets keep shopping...on Friday and Saturday nights!

It read like a text balloon over his head in a cartoon!

If the poor guy was truly unable to see you on the weekend and just really wants to see you right away...Monday, Tuesday etc..this week, and he wants you that badly...he would have seen you on the weekend in the first place!

Don't be fooled! He made choices!

If he strayed over the weekend and has come down with the blues and suddenly realizes he really wants you...he still doesn't get 'this week!' What the fuck is that!?

He skipped a weekend because he let other things interfere...his choice!
If he is suddenly in love and wanting to see you in the week without mentioning the weekend...it can be that he got 'rejected' with whatever dreamgirl date plan he managed perfectly well over the weekend...so he goes to check the bone he buried.

(Arn't I grumpy : )!)

It depends what all happened regarding that missed weekend. If he just asked to late and by email and the 24 hour rule it might just be a coincidence.

My ex would purposefully confuse communication to sabotage weekend plans.

Enough already! About your response:

"So I will respond to, "Do you have a preference for which day on the weekend? Did you have a nice weekend?" with.... "Thanks for asking I had a really fun weekend. Busy, busy! What day did you have in mind?"

For starters I would say he did NOT ask about the weekend. He is talking about Monday until Thursday. I would answer only about Monday, Tuesday, Wedenesday or Thursday! I would be a dumb fox and not think he means Friday or Saturday whatsoever!

And you already know Thursday is out so you could say you NOT Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday! In other words, you have plans through Thursday!

The response might be 'Oh, I wish I had known, I have plans right through Thursday!'

With this particular exchange I feel BAM! is too late. I don't think you can start the BAM! three questions now, regarding a date this week.

The best is to have no date this week. Let the 'Sounds like fun!' swirl around in his head/heart regarding the nice ideas about tennis or cooking but NOT be about one of these weekdays!

If he approaches you fresh about the 'weekend' in response you can start fresh with BAM!

Additionally I would not answer the casual question about how your weekend was.

If he then asks specifically about the weekend without a day, but you still wish there was a date plan you might try answering with 'What should I wear?' first. If he can visualize the date (ie tennis) it might help him say the club is booked out on Friday and Saturday night, how about Sunday? Or, he could say we can see a movie Friday or Saturday night! Or he might say, if we are cooking at my place/your place how about Saturday night?

BEFORE you say Yes and agree to the day ask first 'What time?'

During the summary in which you say back the plan...as if thinking aloud, you can then say the day yourself.

Like so..."We'll cook at your place, new tanktop, you'll pick me up at 8pm, okay, Friday!"

Why? Because I NEVER say the S word...the Saturday word! NEVER! IF you get so deep in a corner that you must say a day never say the S word...not even 'not Saturday!'

If he doesn't ask you out for a Saturday he doesn't get to see you Saturday. Don't help him!

...continued...

Thank you so much for the great advice, DUD alert and forewarning of DUDish behavior.

We have been out on 5 dates.. 4 were saturdays. So this one he emails (ggrr i do the 24 hour rule though he emails me back within 20 minutes) and says he would love to see me again, and that he was nervous for some reason last time we went out. He said he is not usually ever like that in his daily life, but something came over him (my dreamgirlness! Haha) So he emailed me on Sunday asking about the week. Previously we talking about doing something more low-key (my idea... ahh rulebreak!) and chill - we go to nice restaurants and then usually have a drink downtown. So he suggested tennis or cooking dinner together (we both like to cook) and going to see a movie. I wrote back, "Sounds like fun!" so now he seems like he is trying to get me to pick the day. He said he is open all week except thu, when am I free? What day do I prefer?
I get the impression he is trying to be accommodating and let me decide what works best for me... but like you said... I want a man with a plan!!!

I like BAM (found it on the lili files) and it is the best. I use it a lot on friends and family too. It rocks!!

Thanks again...

So I will respond to, "Do you have a preference for which day on the weekend? Did you have a nice weekend?" with....
"Thanks for asking I had a really fun weekend. Busy, busy! What day did you have in mind?"

Yes? No?