TR Men

i "how much does a man have to pay
i before he gets there?"

Ick! This guy obviously wasn't trying
to court you and win you over. Good
riddance!

Sorry you had to go through that but
rest assured there are guys out there
who will be happy to treat you simply
because they enjoy the pleasure of
your company and care more about
you than just getting you into bed.

My boyfriend always pays for dinner,
and much more, and seems happy to
do so.

Take care,

Emma

Hi and welcome to the boards.

Read through your post again and you will find that you have answered your own question - he is deciding the dates therefore he knows how much they will cost and if he cannot afford it then he should arrange a cheaper date! However after date 3, I believe that TR states you could offer to pay the tip, sometimes I pay the parking as we don't tip in the UK.

I have been dating my bf for over 9 months now and have never paid on a date. At about 3 months I cooked him dinner but still he prefers to cook or take me out. He has a good point though, I cooked dinner for us last night and we both had upset tummys this morning, lol!

As for buying him a gift, yes, I would think that a little odd to buy a present for no reason. Presents are for birthdays, christmas and special occasions.

I am not sure that he is a next but maybe a raised eyebrow and the famous 'lili' WHAT! next time he suggests that you should pay.

Yes, Salsa every week and a Salsa Party once a month, although Salsaman did try to slot another one in last Saturday but it just did not work for me as my girls dad is on holiday and I don't like leaving them more than once a week with his aunty.

We are having beautiful weather in UK at the moment so everything is wonderful.

It sounds like you need to dance more than ever at the moment, it is such a good stress reliever as you have to concentrate fully on what you are doing (or on the ladies wiggle!). Don't let work stress you too much - Work to live, not live to work! You know you are worth it ;-D

Hi Honey

How are you? Is everything going well? Hows the dancing going?

Nope - the zoo it was ... in the snow!! It was fun though.

Apparently I am beautiful even with snow in my hair and a blue nose, lol! Salsaman was great, he drove my eldest daughter and I had my youngest with two of her friends. He bought banners, balloons and pretty stuff to make the lunch fun. They have all gone to bed, exhausted and happy.

Have fun.

You'll love dancing - Cuban Salsa/Rueda is so much fun and so sociable. You get to know so many people and everyone is so friendly.

This easter is going to be fun :-S It is my youngest daughter's birthday and I said I would take her to the Zoo tomorrow but at the moment it is SNOWING! I thought I had ordered sunshine :-D

Good luck dancing. Don't be put off it it takes a little longer to get the hang of it that you expect.

Glad you are getting some rest from work.

Hi, yes everything is great with me.

We have just passed the 6 month mark and the relationship is definitely changing. Suddenly its serious :-D

Its complicated with us both having kids living with us and living a distance apart ... which child/children change schools? I am happy to just wait and see what happens.

He keeps cutting things out of his life to make more room - like acting and singing, but more things crop up to take their place, like his elderly mum needing more time. It is lovely to watch the amount of care that he puts into others, not just me. He is such a sweetie.

How about you? Have you started dancing yet? :-D

Hi, just wanted to say

HAPPY EASTER

Hope you are still around and all is well with you.

A couple of other things sprung to my mind, so I hope you don't mind me posting more.

Firstly, Closure comes from within - it is not really to do with anything he says or does (except to hurt you more) but you letting go of the dream of having him in your life. I had a case of someone I was extremely fond of, perfect for me in every way except not available. Outwardly I acted as if I was finished with the hope/dream of a relationship but it was not until I let go of that internally that I could move on ... no matter what he did or said to me.

The other thing was talking - I am not sure if my advice was clear enough about the smiling at the universe and being yourself. I smile at the universe all the time, take pleasure in the sun in my face or the flowers growing, not actually smiling at anyone in particular - this is infectious to the people around you and they will speak first.

My bf says that one of the things about me that attracted him was that I was always smiling and it made him curious how I always seemed so happy, that made him want to get to know me more.

Go out, smile at the universe and let them come to you...then be careful not to open up too fast or bombard then with idle chatter. I can be a brainless chatterbox sometimes so it does take practice to talk less. I always try to think of the Mona Lisa - she is not particularly beautiful but everyone is fascinated by her smile and want to guess what she is thinking - she is my Rules Girl Icon!

There is something to be said for talking less than we would normally because, IME, men listen in a different way. If you just chatter, they switch off - I catch my bf doing that every now and again, especially when he is tired. However if, especially at the beginning of a relationship, you talk less and let him lead the conversations he will pay more attention when you talk.

I am not a great fan of the one call for closure because IME it opens doors to being hurt all over again. I have tried this twice and the first time the guy tried leading me up the same garden path as before and the second time I got a text saying 'I would love to go out with you again but I have someone at the moment, hope I didn't lead you on by being friendly.' - neither were very nice experiences. If you conduct yourself with integrity throughout the relationship and it doesn't work, then one call is hardly likely to suddenly fix everything and very likely to open yourself up to that person hurting you all over again.

But you are an individual so you must read all the pros and cons and make your own decisions.

I hope you don't mind me commenting but having read your post I feel that I need to say something.

TRs are all about YOU. You seem to be very tied up in what everyone else thinks, what their intentions are and what they want from you.

IMO This is not what TR is about. TR is about freeing yourself from the opinions and actions of others. To help you get a grip on this I would suggest that you read a book called 'The Four Agreements'.

Another thing you said does not sit well with me and that is

i I used to be very friendly (not per TR) with men--and women, too, of course.

It is very TR to be friendly, open and receptive - to everyone. The most respected RG who posted here was the loveliest, sweetest most friendly person ever. Her advice to everyone was always be L&B. All her friends set her up with men and men had no problem in asking her out because she was a lovely approachable person. Remember TR is only a set of strategies that help you negotiate your dating life without letting it be the only thing going on.

It tells you to be busy, happy, the best that you can be. It tells you to answer the phone only when it is convenient to you so that you don't get ruled by other people's demands.

IMO you should be adopting TR as is fitting to your personality not trying to change yourself to fit it.

Emily, go out there, smile at whoever you feel like it and never mind what their intentions are - you have your boundaries set which means if their intentions are against what you want to do then you are not going to do it anyway. Maybe it would be an exercise for you to work out where your boundaries lay.

Again, I hope you don't mind my commenting. Rule #1 is the most important - Be the best that YOU can be (as yourself!)

Interesting.

A male friend of mine who I strongly suspect has a thing for me told me last night he thought that it is apparent that a man has to work to get me and it was a good thing, in his opinion. Then he invited me out with him, which he always does. I don't always go and I didn't last night.

The funny thing is, I don't do the Rules on him at all. It is a Rulesy situation where I'm not exactly sure about him but I don't expect him to act pertaining to strict nature of the Rules. For the most part, I do not have many sort of ridiculous expectations of him at all like putting a time table on when he should call if we've gone out or something.

I do have expectations where it matters though - things like is he a cheater, etc.? Do I approve of how he treats other women he dates, etc. This is what guides me in how I decide if he is a good egg or not.

Leonette and I are both a little older, we are single moms, and have had to face a lot of responsiblity.

This probably explains a lot of our "saneness."

The other girls will figure things out as they face more life situations.

Please don't be too hard on them. :)

Oh and btw, I have discussed some details of TR with Salsaman. He has read Mars and Venus and is very open to discussions on the dynamics of relationships. It puzzled him to start with why he felt so masculine and in control when he was with me as opposed to feeling emasculated and unable to be himself with his ex-wife.

I explained to him that, like dancing, I like him to lead. If I feel uncomfortable with anything or passionately want to do something, then I have no problem letting him know.

It was funny on Monday night, at dancing one of the other men was dancing with me and said something about leading - I laughed and said that he was a man and he should lead, all the time, not just on the dance floor! He replied 'That must make your man feel so good'

I agree with everything you just posted and with your philosophy. It is my philosophy also.

I'm not a hard fast rules follower. I think the premise of the rules makes sense but at some point we have to rely on our experience and common sense when applying them to our lives.

Some women need the rules more than others. That is not a criticism of these women. People will be in varying stages of development and that's okay.

I see cases where people find any conversation with the opposite sex, no matter how ordinary and mundane, challenging. Others have problems enforcing their boundaries. Even others struggle with self-esteem issues. For these people, TRs can be very valuable.

I don't have problems conversing with men, enforcing my boundaries, or have low self-esteem. I am a typical Leo, :-) For me, TR was a jumping off point to get back into dating after 20 years. It was the first dating book I read. I have read others as well.

I have found TR helpful but I don't revere them, if you know what I mean.

I wonder how TRs compliment normal social etiquette situations. For example, I absolutely hate trying to set up a date/appointment with someone who refuses to commit or provide input. (Not a man-woman date, but a friends date.) Say I want to see a movie and ask my girlfriend to go with me and she says yes but won't tell me when or what movie she's interested in seeing or whether she wants to eat before or after the movie, etc. That would really tick me off. I probably wouldn't ask her to go with me again. I can't imagine a man trying to set a date with me would feel any differently yet that seems to be the prescribed Rules date setup scenario.

Back to my original question. Of course I have a specific man in mind. I am not stupid, dense, thick, or in denial. I am not trying to convince myself that he is a 1% guy (thanks Kevin for your input on this), or that he is (or isn't) interested in dating me, or that he thinks of me at all for that matter. He is a puzzling guy.

What do I know? (1) I like him. (2) He likes me. He's my friend. (3) He isn't dating anyone and (4) everyone I know says he's "elusive" and "weird" and that something must have happened to him that he is so withdrawn and mysterious and doesn't let people "in through his walls." People speculate that he was abused as a child. Who knows?

I don't pretend to believe that my friendship with him will ever be anymore than it is. I am trying to figure out what makes him tick.

TRs would say that as a woman, I am not allowed to have a friendship with this man. I completely disregard this idea as I am completely unwilling to give up 50% of my friends.

For now, I follow TRs with him as much as I feel comfortable following them. I never call him. I never ask him out or invite him to participate in my social activities. I don't show too much interest. Every date we've had has been set up via TRs. But, I do respond to his emails and will continue to respond.

I doubt this will ever go anywhere, I expect nothing from him, and I'm not waiting on him.

I guess that is my answer. He's a puzzle. I don't understand him. I shouldn't even try. It's an exercise in futility. I should take him at face value.

Hi My Honeys, How are you?

May I just comment on some of what you have said above. As you know I do TR in a relaxed fashion - not in a way that is about manipulating the man but in a way that is lifting my self-esteem and boundaries to something that I can live with.

Personally, I think hardline behaviour of any type should be avoided in a partner. TR is an aid to dating, not a sure fire way of getting men to fall in love with you. I think TR only work if the man is interested in you and wants to pursue. They give you grounding, balance and perspective...not a magic wand.

Without TR, I was the ultimate stalker phone woman, hounding my prespective men into running for cover.

Since TR, I have met men who have done this to me and I hated it! I have learned to moderate my behaviour and not force anything to happen, be open and receptive BUT most of all I have also learned to allow a man to be masculine, pursuing and taking care of me and in return I can be feminine and protected.

It is so unfortunate that a small majority of women practicing TR to the extreme have given it such a bad name that most men think it is all about the manipulation when in reality it should be nothing about the man but all about the women feeling naturally good about herself.

I've been mulling this over for awhile and would really like a man's input.

The Rules authors say that the Rules work on 99% of men. That means they don't work on 1%. (Please don't quote me but I remember it was something like this.)

I am sure that when TRs aren't working on a particular man and the woman really likes him, she would like to try and lump him into the 1% category. This is where she falls off the Rules wagon and starts making excuses for him and also makes mistakes in her behaviors. After all, it is more likely that a man just isn't that interested in her rather than that he is impervious to the rules, right?

However, the authors admit that there is an elusive ~1% of men out there who will not respond to the rules. Can you offer any insight into who these men are, what makes them unresponsive to the rules, how a woman can tell the difference between a 1% man and a man who isn't that interested in her, and how she goes about conducting herself should she find herself attracted to a man of the rare 1% species?

Or, is it that these 1% men are so dysfunctional that no sane woman would want to be involved with one and they should be avoided all together?

Thanks, Kevin.

Kevin,

You seem like such a great guy and I'm sure someone as mature as you will find a great woman one day.

I just want to say that I completely understand where the email girl comes from, because I used to be that girl. She has probably been burned really bad by guys not as great as you and although it isn't your fault, it is still something she is dealing with.

That said, I'm sure she just wasn't rejecting you as a person - she was just rejecting something she is not at all ready for. You are right, she totally isn't the right person right now and she may never be. I just have more compassion and am a little less blaming because I understand where she is at.

The cliche': Once bitten, twice shy is so true. What happens to a person when they are twice bitten? Or more than that, as we find with so many these days?

I just saw the movie, "Enchanted." It kindof poked fun at our sad reality of romance nowadays. It doesn't exist really anymore and everyone is jaded (lost hope).

Is there any way we can get hope back?

Sandy~

Your situation almost mirrors one of mine exactly - except I didn't live with mine or had a weak moment and kissed him (which I'm thankful for after observing his behavior lately).

You have to be honest with yourself about why you want to be friends with him. Is it that you just want friendship? If so, then you can be as casual as you want with him. But I think you want more so this complicates things naturally. And you crossed a line of friendship by kissing him which further complicates things.

I'd try to build my self esteem by getting out and meeting other men. This is working wonders for me. It is great when a cute guy calls that you've met and invites you to something - nothing cures PBTing over every detail in a wishy-washy situation such as this.

For example, my guy friend (we had been best friends at one point and similar situation to yours) and I made plans to meet up a few weeks ago. I ended up not making it out and he ended up making sure he saw me the next night when there were other plans with friends. It was obvious something was developing between us but guess what? He screwed it up by hitting on one of my friends, who is gorgeous and who I know flirted with him, derailing the whole thing. When he invited me to his party on New Year's Eve I told him that I'd go and I'd be sure to invite my friends too (he knew I meant her). He was shaking his head no, that wasn't what he meant, but I was like yeah, you guys can get together.

Well, I didn't show up New Year's Eve. My friend did and I heard that he was trying to hook up with her (of course) but she wouldn't. He has ended up boomeranging back to me, calling me but I don't answer, and when I ran into him the other night he was complaining about me not returning his calls and saying I missed out on New Year's? I told him happily that "No, I didn't." I had other plans that night.

That was the end of that. I am not PBTing over it at all. Why? Because a cute, smart guy I had met at a party over a month ago had phoned me that week and invited me to something. I knew I had other options so it didn't bother me to let the other one go because he didn't treat me well.

The best part of all of this is I'm not even that mad at him. I guess at some point we could go back to being friends without drama again, but right now I just feel like I need distance from this situation so things don't keep going badly like this. I want a guy who makes me happy and certain about his feelings for me.

Sounds like Cuban Salsa is the thing for you then - the man leads all the time and the woman just has to be able to follow and keep in beat ... and it is very sexy!

Salsaman is a fantastic dancer and whenever we go to parties lots of ladies ask him to dance even tho he is with me. I don't mind because then I can dance with all the men that ask me and the more practice you get with different people the better you get.

It really is so much fun and great exercise. Also on a chemical level, the human interaction releases oxytocin which gives you a happy buzz. :-D

lol, I found OLD so difficult too. Once you get into a round of emailing it seems to drag on forever. I would much rather email a couple of times and then meet the person before you form too many misconceptions about them.

OLD in the UK is a bit lame too - more of the people on there are ones that you probably would not want to meet IRL anyway.

Have you set yourself up some activities where you can meet women naturally? - I would definitely recommend dancing of some sort - Salsa, Cheroc, Swing - generally you don't have to know anything at a beginners class and you don't need a partner because you swap round. Also there is always a shortage of men and nothing cuter than a man who can dance!!

Yes, hopefully. He has all the qualities that I would like in a partner (including the fact that he absolutely adores me :-D)

We have talked about the logistics of combining households but it is quite complicated as we both have children living with us and although my house is nicer it is still not quite big enough for all of us and an office for him. I am sure that he will work out a solution ... if he really wants to.

Meanwhile I am just enjoying being with him and having fun.

Are there any new ladies on your dating schedule?

My salsaman is still as lovely as ever. He has started discussing the logistics or merging our two families at some time in the future - so it is all heading in the right direction.

He bought me the prettiest pair of heart shaped gold earrings and a big fluffy/cuddly pink dressing gown for christmas :-D

Happy New Year

Hope all is going well for you.