Depression, Suicide and Midlife Men

Great story and I agree with that kind of punishment. I also agree with a smack to the face of a teenager to bring them back to reality. My thirteen year old has matured to the point of insulting and cursing at her Mom. I recently turned around as my wife was driving and grabbed my daughters jacket after she cursed at my wife, the funny thing is that my wife was still trying to hand her a five dollar bill to by some desert at a bookstore while we went food shopping. I explained to my wife that I felt like smacking my daughter for her foul mouth and her for trying to reward her at the same time. I've never been physically abusive with my wife, but I told her that I was sure if the roles were reversed I would be in serious trouble. This past summer my nineteen year old daughter and I got into a physical altercation after I insisted she move the car we had bought her. She was convinced she could beat me up and not do as I asked, she is five foot two inches tall and weighs one hundred and twenty pounds. I am five ten, two hundred and ten pounds and have practiced martial arts and lifted weights for thirty years. I did not hit her and did resist the urge to choke her when we landed on the floor with my hand wrapped around her throat. That's the kind of unnecessary behavior that results from children seeing their father and mother fighting all the time and not doing their jobs of instilling better manners, respect and life lessons in their children. My daughter has since moved on to a Ivy League College and when we are together she avoids the invitation to a rematch. Boys and men should not hit girls or women, and girls and women should not assume they can hit boys or men without suffering the consequences. I'll stop before I get back to the marriage stuff again.

About spanking....now, we aren't talking beating, here. And we aren't talking assaulting a child because you are angry. We are talking consequences. A story: When I was about 6 yrs old I got a bad case of wanderlust. Time and time again, I would "escape." Didn't matter how many times I was told NOT to leave the yard...as soon as I thought no one was looking, I was off to see the world. Of course, my frantic momma would eventually find me, drag me home, give me a good talking to, "ground" me to my room, or take away my bike, yucky oatmeal for dinner for a week, etc etc. Poor Momma,,,she tried everything. Even taking me out wandering with her. But, in a day or two, there I would go...right out the gate and off to see Henry's goats or something. Once she even found me downtown, a mile away, at the pet shop. She had thought I was in my room...but I snuck out. I had no fear of Momma,,,nor Daddy. I could sit there getting the "talking to," phase them out, and be thinking about sneaking over to watch the bulldozers doing something up the hill. I was willful and defiant. Then Grandma came to visit. No-Nonsense-from-children Grandma. Momma was going in the hospital for something, and Grandma was going to be watching over me. She was warned about my wanderlust. The day Momma left, Grandma went out in the back, looked around, found what she wanted, and then came back in swishing a 3 ft long willow switch. Making it whistle through the air. Then she placed it on the table, and told me to sit down on a kitchen stool. I remember it like yesterday. She told me, "I hear you like to run away and go adventuring. You will NOT run away while I am here. If you do, I WILL find you. Then I will bend you over that stool, pull down your drawers, and (she picks up the switch and snaps it through the air) YOU will get FIVE swats across your bare heiny. And if you do it again, you will get TEN. (SWISH! SWISH!) It sti-i-ngs like the dickens!" She placed it back on the table. There it laid like a Warning. I eyed it daily. Thinking things like, "Well, how bad could it be. Can't last more than a minute." But then I'd hear that snappy whistle swish in my mind. Grandma never had to use that switch on me...if she ever really intended to do so I will never know. Obviously I FEARED PAYING THE CONSEQUENCES OF MY ACTIONS. I respected the switch! Besides, I knew my No-Spank Momma would be home soon, and the ol' switch witch would leave. Well, When Momma came home, Grandma apparently told her how she had managed to tame the little tiger. MOMMA picked up that switch and snapped it through the air. "Good idea," she said. Uh-oh! Well......I stayed close to home. For awhile. But then one day, I talked Billy into going with me to follow the railroad tracks. To make a long story short...Momma didn't come looking for me. She called the police. I got BIG eyed over THAT, I'll tell you. They took us home in the back of the cruiser, and gave me a fierce warning of what would happen to me if I did it again. Something about runaways go to detention centers, etc. And that night, Momma said, "Drop your drawers and lean over the stool." I got five stingy swats across my runaway butt. OWWWWWWWWWWW And I knew I deserved it. I'd been warned. I had to pay the consequences. Grounding me hadn't done it, taking things away from me hadn't done it. But the fear of the switch changed my ways. The never-again-used switch stayed in the kitchen until probably when I was around twelve. It dried up, became brittle and useless, but it was always a reminder. Momma eventually gave me more leeway to go places on my own as long as I said where, and was home for dinner. Now, that switchin' didn't hurt my psychi one bit. Stung my butt, but it taught me I wasn't going to be getting away with my willful ways anymore. I think I was a better child because of it. No telling HOW willful and then defiant and arrogant I might have become had they not come down on me at a young age. And remember the scary paddle hanging on the wall in the principal's office! Fight on the playground and you got a whack. And you knew it, so you didn't. The worst walk in the world was to the principal's office! We are all entitled to our opinions. Mine is that a good consequence is a good thing. Fear of disipline goes a long way. Now, of course, we are talking about rational people here...not an angry abuser going off on a child. So, then, I had four children of my own. All four under the age of 7. Arrrggghhhh. What one didn't think of, another one did. Okay..we try something like the "Naughty Corner." THAT would just bring on giggling and and others thinking it was big fun. Etc etc. Soooo, one day I got a belt. I folded it in half and started snapping it. SCARY! And I said, "If you pour that koolaid on your sister's head one more time, I am going to snap this across your butt!" (Snap, snap) Warned. Well, I NEVER used that belt...never intended to do so....never had to do so. My threat of dire consequences worked. I snapped it a hellava lot, though. Today they laugh about it. But, I DID smack a smart disrespectful mouth of one of my teenagers. And I would do it again. And that's my story.

Jude, you made some interesting suggestions and I wish it was that easy. My wife feels an obligation to her parents who are ill and her sisters who play the guilt game beyond any attempt to salvage our marriage and address issues in our life such as finances. I am home during the day and all I ask for is some time in the early evening to spend together and some time on the weekend. I know my wife wants to accomodate me but she is on such a mission to be there for her folks and share duties with her sisters that she is torn between the two and since I am not in any immediate physical crisis, my needs or wants take a back seat. Things are more complicated than that but I don't want to bore you any further. I suggest divorce rather than continued fighting but my wife and I do love eachother so she thinks in time things will get better. I don't right now I'm not happy with my marriage but maybe things will improve. I'm glad you mentioned your thoughts on the Mensa experience, I myself am not that gifted but sometimes putting labels on people, even good ones can hinder their lives and how others react towards them. My older daughter is very bright and has always been at the top of class. She is now in college but right on through to high school she was either admired or hated for her scholastic ability. I'd like to touch on the spanking issue. I have been back and forth on this for years, when my daughters were young I did give a few spanks but I think there is real risk to the child. I defended it for years as reasonable and acceptable, but I don't feel the same way now. I think when we spank a child we do so when we are angry and while some of us can control that smack to the behind, unfortunately there are too many variables. I still think if there are certain situations that warrant a spanking and for toddlers who can't understand lenghty explanations regarding the hazards of a hot stove or running away from Mom into traffic maybe it is appropriate. I would rather use denying a activity or something else the child attachs value to as a form of punishment. This only works if the parents are on the same page and in my home too often I would attempt to discipline our daughters only to have my wife interrupt me, then my wife and I would argue. I've watched experts on Oprah and people like Dr. Phil who I think has some good ideas and so has my wife, but when it came time to show a united front to the children things always fell apart. I agree with the tough love for the most part, we need to teach our children usefull life lessons so they can function and survive in the real world. Young adults who are disrespectful don't do well in the work place, young adults who have poor hygene habits and keep sloppy homes may not have good lives. Beauty and good looks fade for most over time but good habits and values can last a lifetime. "Teach your children well", I've been trying and will continue but it's a struggle not only with the kids but with my wife.

You are welcome, Frankie. Have you thought about taking the wifey on a "Let's run away from it all" weekend break...like perhaps a place where your room has a fireplace, room service and a cd player for her favorite old music. AWAY from reality life. Have roses waiting in the room, woo her, buy her something pretty. Make it a rule NOT to talk about anything serious. Just be in the moment. Maybe a shot in the arm like that would remind her why she loved you in the first place. The same old every day gets routine, boring, and so settled into for granted. Under pressure, people get weary...and weary can become a way of being. Of course, I don't know the particulars of your situation, but it seems to me such a venture couldn't hurt. Also, if you lived somewhere else when your marriage was younger, sometimes it is rejuvenating to take a trip down memory lane...back to the old places,,see the changes..play remember when. Just suggestions of things that I have loved, and endeared my love to me..a refresher. Now, on to Cyrano. I am beginning to suspect that you are toying with us a bit. For the sake of your favorite pasttime..argue/debate...presenting your case. For one thing, you are now saying that you never said you were going to kill yourself...well, you certainly implied it! You made it sound like you were over the railing and ready to jump. There were kind people in here who became alarmed and tried to assist you, only to be put back with your rebuttal. Like a court case where you are trying to convince. Like to convince US that life is shit and we should ALL want to kill ourselves. Your list of "do goods" is impressive, but you know what I noticed about it? It is all rather faceless and impersonal. Charity work for the anonymous. None of it personal and up close with one individual/family where you actually get to feel the joy, love, appreciation of having helped someone. Gifts of help from heart to heart. Just an observation. And what's with Camus,,,you have mentioned Camus a couple of times. I would think that anyone as intelligent as you would recognize Camus, like a Poe, for what he was. Sick and twisted. Genius minds are not always healthy minds. In fact, history can show us that those deep thinking geniuses are often the most miserable souls....and have caused a hellava lot of the grief in this world when they become leaders. That says something for the Simple Minded...did you ever notice that often the least intelligent folks are the most happiest. Maybe because they don't have the capacity to dig for misery, grievances. I'll bet I see more smiles among the folks at our Special Olympics than at any other gathering on earth. You've made it prefectly clear you don't like platitudes, etc, but you are classic for "when you are in a hole, don't keep digging." That is exactly what you do. Don't you? Ol' Tom cat, toying the mouse of misery to death. I also get the feeling that you sort of talk down to some of the people in here who have shown you nothing but compassion and kindness. Like THEY couldn't possibly understand what YOU have figured out about this crap called life. Well, there are a couple of gentlemen who have talked to you who are just as smart as you are...maybe not as educated...but with GREAT common sense. And I'm not stupid, either. I had a psychiatrist who, trying to help me elevate my self-esteem, who recognized something in me that I didn't realize, gave me the valid and authentic MENSA test. I passed. Easily. I became a MENSA member. In my real life, NO ONE knows that except my spouse. I don't tell anyone anymore because it intimidates people. And frankly, I find it a bit embarrassing. And, ha, you know what? Back in the 80's, I went to a gathering...MENSA convention of sorts...and I found myself rolling my eyes. Yawn. There wasn't a spontaneous action anywhere. They all THOUGHT too much to be spontaneous!!!!! LOL Oh, granted, some of them were interesting, for sure, and most of them dearly LOVED to hear themselves talk! Well, maybe it is my humble upbringing, but I'd rather be in a country saloon where I might only find some hootin' fun and good ol' common horse sense. The kind people get from living and surviving. Wisdom of hardship. People who are too busy keeping up with the big stuff to whine about the small stuff. The un-jaded, if you will. Ones who DON'T have superiority complexes. Heh heh,,,you probably don't like me one bit. That's okay, you know. I know I am blunt, and not known for tact. Also, I'm a firm believer of Tough Love...and calling it like I see it. I get damn tired of this coddling, wishywashy, no more consequences, tolerant, ENABLING society we live in these days. Can't even spank the brat kid who just deliberately ripped a big hole in your $2000 leather sofa with a steak knife. And I wish I could have Andy Rooney over for dinner once a week! Did you by any chance watch Diane Sawyer's visit to Camden the other night? 60 minutes. Omigod......And YOU think you have something to whine about? Whew... count your lucky stars that you weren't born into THAT, as you sit there in your house, in your room, in your chair, at your computer running because you have electricity on. That one teenage boy has become of hero of mine...against all odds, with sheer determination and fortitude, he, inch by hard inch, is clawing his way out of the roaches to a better life. I wish I knew him. He is my person to admire this week. Maybe you should sign up for ballroom dancing lessons. Music, dancing, new friends, fun, exercise.....an escape from the keyboard. With or without your wife if she won't go. Just a thought. Aloha and goodnight!

Jude, thank you for the kind words, I don't make myself out to be a prince but I try to be thoughtful of my words and actions unfortunately it doesn't always work out for the best.I can't seem to make peace and sense with the woman I love, it is a very complicated situation right now, with very ill parents on both our sides and many othr pressures. I still am hopeful love will endure and we will find happiness. Thanks again for seeing what I hope is the real me.

#1,2,3,4, and 5. I rest my case, Squire Cyrano. You have already proven your worth. Do we have any closing arguments?? ;-)

Cyrano, if these "arguments" are enough to keep you going then I'll play along for the next forty years or so. Seriously, I find it absurd that with all you have done and all you do, that you would even consider you life so meaningless as to purposely end it. You lack a fundamental element of what makes us human, the will to live. I think you should hold off any action towards suicide until you have what all of us here agree would be better reasons. Perhaps a slight loss of hearing or sight related to age, the necessity of minor surgery. Something you could sink your teeth into and be proud to say to both yourself and the world " I finally have a serious reason to end my life, other that a failed argument to sustain it further". Stop agreeing with assholes like Camus and start putting a bit more trust in those around you. We are not all mindless zombies following the teachings of The Church, nor are we deep thinkers like yourself whose minds have been slighty damaged like the scratch on a vinyl record. The reocrd plays to a point at which it repeats itself, incapable to play beyond a slight damage. Get over your slight damage and move beyond. Well, my work is done for today Tonto. I am off to walk a treadmill and prolong my insignificant life, who knows I may do something of value to justify another day.Tomorrow I would like to discuss a life coach with you. I am not asking you to continue the fight, just endure the absurdity a while longer.

A list of my in-kind charitable activities over the past 8 years-- 1. overnight crisis hotline volunteer, weekly, 1999-2002 2. Habitat for Humanity volunteer, building houses, 2000-2003 3. Salvation Army Thanksgiving and Christmas, serving holiday meal to anyone who wanted it, 1999-2006 4. adult ESL volunteer for both legal (Bosnian) and illegal (Mexican) immigrants, 2001-2003 5. pro bono legal services, through legal clinic and informal sources, 1999-2007. Don't assume that I haven't tried these things. I have. I even have a "volunteer of the year" certificate from one of the city civic groups for, I think, 2003. It's somewhere in my papers. I will tell you, though, that the benefits haven't been redounding back to me so, except for things I'm currently committed to, I no longer believe that it's a universal truth that if you "pay it forward," it comes back to you. Like any dog in a Pavlovian experiment, eventually my response is the appropriate one for the stimulus. As for playing it safe-- uh, you couldn't be further wrong. Now, making foolish choices, that's another matter, which serves to explain that, despite my much-celebrated brain here, I'm anything but rich. I'll never be able to retire, I know that already. Assuming I live that long, I hope to have remunerative work that I can do until I die. As you might guess, that thought doesn't uplift my spirits much, but I knew, pretty much going in, that this was the way it was going to be. But I return to the original premise-- we're not that unique-- we're far more fungible than unique. And, all the hoary arguments for sticking with the "fight"-- that we're creatures of God, that we're unique and everyone has something to contribute, and so on-- really fall apart when given even cursory examination. It's those platitudinal arguments that bother me, more than anything else., and they bother me enough to respond. I never said I was on the brink of suicide. Every day, it's a discussion I have, both within myself and with a certain few trusted people. (I have friends, by the way) Ultimately, I agree with Camus-- life is absurd, and the central question of any truly rational person's life is, why should I not commit suicide? If someone's dependent on you, then you've got an easy answer. But if they're not, to go through this (sorry) simplistic, "pay it forward" shtick of we've all got something to contribute and the world will unravel if you don't make your contribution, simply ignores reality and pumps our egos up in ways that are grandiose and unrealistic. I think the church's old anti-suicide message stemmed from a time when life really was so hard that the authorities had a true fear that suicide might be contagious, that people would see that their lives weren't worth living, because they were so difficult and had no realistic expectation of improvement. The world has changed, but as usual, the church has not. I also think, as I've said before, that young people ought to be prevented by any means reasonably necessary from suicide (and this goes against the "ashbus" thinking, but they're zealots on the other side...if you're interested in the subject, google the term and expect to be surprised and perhaps shocked)-- the mere fact of being young usually means that the passage of time, by itself, offers chances for life improvement-- that, and the health that goes along with youth. But even there, I wouldn't say that's an absolute. I'm not collecting narcotics and I haven't bought a pistol and ammo, so by the standards of the crisis hotline folks, I am not an immediate suicide risk. But candidly, my life offers no pleasure , no hope, no realistic expectation of either, and little to no justification. I have been searching, assiduously, for all three. I have not merely been hiding behind the keyboard, but as I said above, I take comfort in being able to say "incorrect" things under this alias. If the problem is my personality, then at this late stage, how do I get a personality transplant? I'm not a positive thinker, but that's not going to change-- studies of optimists and pessimists, along with mildly depressed people, show that those of us who are pessimistic and mildly depressed have the most accurate perception of life around us. Optimism requires a certain amount of self-delusion. The notion of whether you see the glass half-full or half-empty is simply semantic silliness. Both accurately describe the condition of the water in the glass. But when someone posits that the path to happiness requires seeing the glass as half-full when in fact it's 9/10 empty-- THAT'S insulting. Yet that's what a lot of "positive thinking" really requires. Quite frankly, what I live for these days is arguments like these. : )

Well, I just read all 37 of the above posts. A fascinating trip it was. First of all, Frankie, you have a beautiful heart, mind and soul. You truly do. Those in your "real" life that have loved you, been loved by you, are most fortunate, indeed. Cyrano...I think you are too negatively smart for your own good. You think too damn much. I'll bet you are one of those people that if someone says to you,"Hi Cy, you look nice today," you start wondering, "What did she mean by that?" I've known people like you. Scrutinizing, analyzing, dissecting, dwelling on, and tearing apart everything good in their lives until they have it all broken down into a complicated mess of bones and nerve endings. Unable to eat the delicious honey of life without making note that it is really something like regurgitated bee puke/poo. There you are with this brilliant mind choosing to walk in the dark shadows of negativity, instead of using that mind to think yourself into the positive light. Sigh..... Another thing, you are very focused on self. You wanna know how to feel useful/good? I'll tell you one way to feel happy..what works for me. (And don't go poohing poohing it.) I have this twice a week housekeeper to do what I can no longer do...she has six kids she is rearing by herself. She cleans like a demon and works like a dog to support them, and see to their educations. She drives an old beat up 89 Ford pickup. I noticed she was not driving and was getting rides to work. When I asked, she told me her truck broke and it was going to cost $2000 to fix it, and she would never be able to do so. I took her to town and bought her a van. Not a new one(though I would have if I could afford it)..a 97, but decent. You would have thought I gave her a new mercedes...she cried with joy and happiness. And I felt so very happy inside. I'm still smiling when I think of how happy she was!! Just a simple random act of kindness that has taken a burden from her. Changed her life. So little to me, so important to her. I try to do things like that as often as I can. You are so smart that I am sure you have made some money. Go give some of it away. THAT will make you smile inside. You can change a life by just an old car. Go to a shelter..pay a month's rent for someone. Use that smart mind to find ways to lift others. Geez. There are so many good people out there living lives of hardship...not because they are lazy...but some maybe just because they were NOT fortunate enough to be born with a brain like yours. Find them. All I can say is if you would kill yourself...oh my, what a shame...what a waste.

Did you ever see the movie Pay It Forward? It is very simplistic. Something is given to you in life. Pass it on. Now here is something even more simple. There is a woman who works in the supermarket that I shop in. Not long ago I asked her how she was. She said her heart was broken. One of the young girls who worked there was run down by a hit and run driver. I consoled her and told her how sorry I was. She said the girl used to tell her she loved her. Each time that I shop now I go to her register. I ask her how she is. We have bonded in the grief that she is suffering. So simple, right? Each little occasion to help another is validity for a life. You just don't know who you are helping on a daily basis. No great deeds here. No Mother Teresa, no Pope, no Einstein, just a little person who shops and may have made a difference in someone's life. Cyrano, you just don't know the little things that you have done for people through your lifetime that have made all the difference in the world. I say, keep it up. Stay the course. You know the expression "Old age ain't for sissies?" I say, life ain't for sissies. It is damn hard. It's tough getting up each day and putting one foot in front of the other and getting through it, especially with pain. Do it. Do what you are called to do. Be unselfish and loving to everyone. It will come back. It's called Karma.

Cyrano, I have a problem with some of your thinking and reasoning. I think we all are part of some grand scheme and while many of us may never realize greatness in the form of artwork or contributions worth historical mention, that is little reason to cut short our lives. According to your thoughts a man who has not procreated and made some ground breaking contribution to society has nothing to justify continued existence, bullshit. Maybe you are not asking the right questions to which you keep getting the answer" end it". How would you defend the lives of the average person if your answers made a difference between their life and death? I would say nature has given us a body and brain that for the most part rejects the idea of self harm and that must account for something on the level of a grand scheme. We feel pain, struggle for food, water and our very breath if it is denied. There may be people out there to whom your existence means more than you realize. You have an "empty marriage", change it! "no friends", make some. How can a man who is as well educated as you be so small minded when it comes to breaking your self made prison of unhappiness? Do you seriously mean to tell us that the only options life holds for you are bad marriage, no friends or suicide? Here are some universal truths from a guy who is not thrilled with his marriage, is lonely, a bit depressed and in physical pain from several different illnesses, as sure as we live, we will die. If you are in a bad relationship or marriage get help, end it or accept it. Reach out and touch someone, get involved with real people instead of hiding behind the dam keyboard and make some friends. Help others and make a difference in someone else's life, that's a real good reason to live! Admit that although life is a gamble, you have played it safe all along.Suicide for a person who is still young and healthy is a easy out. I think the only vaule life holds is that which we place on it, parents who struggle to have a child hold that unborn child in the highest regard while an unwanted pregnancy is terminated intentionally through abortion. Use your intelligent, well educated mind to convince yourself that you have not begun to explore the world around you, what it has to offer and what you as a UNIQUE individual have to offer in return. People have endured torture and years of imprisonment with only the hope of freedom, you have that freedom without the suffering. Do something with it other than contemplate suicide.

"Life has so much to offer and YOU have so much to offer, there is only one you and the world will not be the same without your presence." I have NEVER understood the logic behind this. How effing self-aggrandizing! I suppose that the creation of consciousness in the human creates an ego that goes along with it, and the ego is going to revolt against the idea that most of us really have no effect on the world, unless we propagated and kept the species going. There may be only one me, but I could leave tomorrow and within a couple of weeks, the world would roll on as if I were never here, save in insigificant ways. My case load at work would have to allocated among others. After a few days' worth of platitudes when people spoke about me, I'd be forgotten. I have very few family members and, given the fact that they can't be troubled to tend to the graves of those in our family who're already dead, I wouldn't expect any more remembrance from them. That wouldn't bother me-- I'd be dead. My wife would remarry, or otherwise pursue her life. The important people in her life, her sisters and close friends, would still be there. It would be inconvenient for her because she relies on me to change lightbulbs and carry out the trash and pick her up when she leaves her car at the shop, but none of those are insurmountable problems. Oh, as to whether she would "miss" me in the emotional sense-- I sincerely doubt it, at least not after a few weeks or months. Like a lot of midlife women who find themselves alone, I suspect she would probably find life better after a time-- and if she didn't, she could try and remarry. I haven't created any great artwork, nor am I going to do so. I have created no children. I have am empty marriage. I really have no close friends. Soooo.... "So don’t give up the fight!" makes me ask the question-- what am I fighting for? To what end? What purpose? I go back to Frankl, who says that he who knows why he wants to live can endure almost any situation. Theconverse is true-- I have no why, people in my situation have no why, and the primary pleasure that remains to me on days like today is in reminding those of you, whether well-meaning or sanctimonious, who think that there are universal truths regarding this question that NO, there aren't. And I admit, I get some pleasure from it. Reason enough to live? Doubt it.

Wow, you guys are deep. I suppose thoughts of suicide may be more prevalent in middle-aged men for the reasons you all mentioned, but as a colleague once told me, "we've all thought about it." Some follow through with it and are successful - I've had relatives, college roomates and friends end their own life. Some follow thru and "fail", thank God. Some talk about it but never do it. Some of us have thought about it but that's it. I don't know why other people don't do it but I know me. I have come to the conclusion that if it's my time to go, God does not need my help to get me out of here. Have any of you seen "It's a Wonderful Life"? I'm probably one of the few people under 40 who LOVE this movie. If I had never lived, how would things be different? The thing is, I may have touched lives and I don't even know it. I may believe my life is worthless, but someone else is glad I am here. And I think women are better able to comprehend this. It seems to me that men are taught to be independent and to make it on their own. I could see why they might think, I don't need anybody, therefore nobody needs me. We women are taught that we are needed to nurture everyone else around us, so we feel needed. Now I don't think that means men need to become more like women and more nurturing. I think it means that men may need to be taught that they are needed. Especially now that we women can support ourselves. I think we give off even more of the "I don't need men" vibe and I don't think that's good. I used to do it myself. But now - it doesn't matter that I went to college, have a job, can support myself and still have money left over to save, invest and give to others in need - I still need a man. My women friends and relatives can nurture me and I love that, but the men in my life can guide me and advise me in a way that women will never be able to do. They can give me great advice and not get emotional about it. I know it doesn't mean they don't care, they just show it differently. Men don't take care of others the same way that women do, but they do take care of others and that is valuable and I don't know if all men know that. Just my thoughts. And in case you haven't guessed - I love men!

I am glad to have found this blog. I find it interesting to hear the discussions as to what makes a person feel the want to end his or her life. I feel close to these arguments though I would not fit into the statistics that were mentioned at the top of this page. I am in my late 30s and have struggled with depression my entire life. I can't remember a time, even as far back as early childhood, that I did not feel inadequate and that life was sometimes more than I could handle. Suicide has always been that one thought that has hung over me and though I have not had any serious attempts to take my own life it has always been a dream of escape. Just a comment about why a person that has no major health problems, has things tougher than some but easier than others, and seems to have 'Something to live for' would consider committing suicide: Those things alone do not give me a reason to live. Everyday I hear of people that have died that seem to have 'Loved Life' and enjoyed their time here and I always think it unfair that they no longer live and I continue to. Just because I continue to live does not give me a reason to want to go on living. Shame on me for having a healthy body but go to bed at night wishing that as I sleep my heart stops and I do not wake up. Is it right for me to think these things when there is someone right now laying in a hospital dying, praying for just one more minute of life. No. But that still does not make my pain go away.

"Would you as a physically healthy man suffering from some form of depression and thinking deep thoughts on life and suicide not struggle, not seek treatment?" Frank, I can only answer hypothetically, but I've considered that very question, and I think I'd opt for palliative treatment instead of heroic attempts to prolong my life. If it were today, that would definitely be my choice-- but again, unless faced with the situation in real life, it's all only hypothetical. I might start loving life. I might find religion. Either would be a surprise, however. I'm not about to pass up drugs, of course. "we are off to see the Wizard to get you a heart!!" Thanks for the invite, but my metabolism has adjusted to the lump of coal that's already there.

Come Home, Cyrano....all is forgiven. Now, pack a bag...we are off to see the Wizard to get you a heart!!

Cyrano, obviously I am neither as well educated or highly intelligent as you but that does not discourage me from my well intended attempts to engage you in your quest for reasons to live. I mentioned health not to insult your depression as a poor excuse or argument but because as a man who has suffered from poor health for much of my life it provides an enemy to battle. The struggle to endure either physical illness or psychiatric problems is a brave and worthwhile fight. I believe that if the masses value life then it's worth pursuing their ideals, rather than empower an illogical one. I give you credit for trying so many diverse activities in your quest but like so many people who suffer from depression or other psychiatric problems you may be too close to see a way out. I briefly mentioned the term life coach in closing yesterday. I don't fully understand the benefits if any such a person could offer to as educated man as yourself, but if you have not tired this yet would there be any harm in exploring the possibility? I've failed poorly at stimulating you to rethink your beliefs, but that does not mean someone else may not provide the perspective necessary. I have a question for you and I don't know if your answer has a direct bearing on the original blog or your preoccupation thoughts of suicide but here goes and I am serious. If you were either in a life and death struggle with an assailant or were informed that you had a possibly fatal illness, would you struggle and fight to live against your attacker, and would you seek treatment and in some way hope to survive your illness? I'm curious how a person who is contemplating his own demise would react to the choice being taken from him. I have been following my Fathers journey towards death for the last year or so after being diagnosed with an age related blood cancer. He has chosen to accept every help modern medicine can offer, while I myself would welcome a Dr. Kervorkian to end things quickly before they became painful, sad and messy. Would you as a physically healthy man suffering from some form of depression and thinking deep thoughts on life and suicide not struggle, not seek treatment? I am not trying to trap you or trick you, I really wonder if there is a connection and I'd like to discuss it more if you are willing to give it some thought and respond. Thank you.

"I am beginning to suspect that you are toying with us a bit. For the sake of your favorite pasttime..argue/debate…presenting your case. For one thing, you are now saying that you never said you were going to kill yourself…well, you certainly implied it! You made it sound like you were over the railing and ready to jump. There were kind people in here who became alarmed and tried to assist you, only to be put back with your rebuttal. Like a court case where you are trying to convince. Like to convince US that life is shit and we should ALL want to kill ourselves." I didn't mean to imply it, and I guess that, in my desire to present the points I wanted to make, I didn't give sufficient attention to those well-meaning people. I apologize for that, to you and anyone who offered suggestions. As I said in my first posting here, the only reason I felt it was appropriate to mention my own condition is that there was a lot of speculation as to why middle-aged and older men committed suicide at such relatively high rates, and I thought I had worked out some answers that made sense...which is all they can do, since the reasons too often die with the victims. I guess I should have made it more clear up-front that I'm in no immediate danger of suicide, as I said in my last post. I think that the word itself has such power that my mentioning that I had considered it and still do so raises alarm bells in people. Thanks to those of you who offered suggestions. I didn't intend to try to convince anyone that life per se is shit. My own life? That's a different story, although the fact that I am still here is proof that at some level it's tolerable. I think I said before that I envied people who had good reasons to live-- I'm not going to go through the "transcript" and see, because I'm not trying to prove a point. If I didn't say it before, I'm saying it now-- I truly envy those who have good reasons to live, "good" being "good enough." I know I mentioned my father in law and his pinochle at the old folks' club, and that I envied him that simple pleasure. I actually appreciated Jed not trying to help me, but saying that everyone, including me, is entitled to his or her say. As for why older men's lives might be sufficiently depressing that suicide becomes more of an option for them-- I've experienced a lot of it, and have seen some other aspects of it in other men. That was the primary purpose of Jed's blog. "Your list of “do goods” is impressive, but you know what I noticed about it? It is all rather faceless and impersonal. Charity work for the anonymous. None of it personal and up close with one individual/family where you actually get to feel the joy, love, appreciation of having helped someone. Gifts of help from heart to heart. Just an observation." Well, we all operate in our comfort zone. Trust me, I tried all those things in an effort to help myself feel better about myself and life in general. I did get the rush of helping people on the crisis hotline, but two things happened-- I burned out, and my own depression made me a less desirable choice to perform that role. I had a ton of empathy with many fo the callers, but in a way that wasn't a good thing. And what makes you think I have a heart? "I also get the feeling that you sort of talk down to some of the people in here who have shown you nothing but compassion and kindness. Like THEY couldn’t possibly understand what YOU have figured out about this crap called life. Well, there are a couple of gentlemen who have talked to you who are just as smart as you are…maybe not as educated…but with GREAT common sense." Sorry you feel that way. I do feel like I figured out something about my life, and back to the original subject, about why men in my position are more likely to commit suicide. And as for Camus-- I'm referring to his long essay "The Myth of Sisyphus," not to his novels. I'm not a fan of his novels, although I do agree with him regarding the absurdity of the world in general. But he starts "Sisyphus" with a question, why live? And he answers it in the positive, but I'm glad he addressed the question directly. After years of therapy, counseling, self-help books, and meds, it was the first thing on the subject that rang true. I mention Camus and Frankl multiple times because they're the only writers on the subject of reasons to live that make any sense to me, although I'm still struggling with Frankl. He seems to say that you must have hope for the future, and that's what I can't find. And finally-- "Did you by any chance watch Diane Sawyer’s visit to Camden the other night? 60 minutes. Omigod……And YOU think you have something to whine about? Whew… count your lucky stars that you weren’t born into THAT, as you sit there in your house, in your room, in your chair, at your computer running because you have electricity on. That one teenage boy has become of hero of mine…against all odds, with sheer determination and fortitude, he, inch by hard inch, is clawing his way out of the roaches to a better life. I wish I knew him. He is my person to admire this week." I'm sorry that you and Frank both had to raise this old chestnut-- you don't have a right to feel bad, because this person (in Frank's case, his reference to maybe I could have a medical problem and therefore have a real reason to complain) REALLY has it bad. If you can extrapolate from my arguments, I can extrapolate from yours. Are you saying that because I don't have something external to feel bad about, my feeling bad is evidence of bad character? That a person of good character would have the fortitude to bootstrap himself out of his situation? Ya know, you may be right. Of course, millions of people with depression would not only disagree with you, they'd be insulted. But I also don't think I'm depressed in the same way most people are. I'm not proud of that, I just notice it. It's my worldview, my belief system, combined with cetain truths about myself. It's why, I suspect, meds and several "classical" forms of psychotherapy and analysis didn't work for me. Many's the time I wished I lived in a big enough city to find one of the fairly rare breeds of philosophical counselors, like the guy who wrote "Plato, not Prozac." That also helped me some. I didn't see the 60 Minutes thing, but the young man certainly sounds like someone to admire. Once again, I appreciate people's well-meaning suggestions. I admit, I bristled at some of them, but once and for all, I recognize the goodness of people trying to help. Please keep in mind that, due to the nature of the medium, these words, on this subject, are the only thing you see about me. I do think a lot about this subject, but real life demands that I attend to things there. This pony has more than one trick. Oh, we tried dancing lessons some time back, too, and decided for the sake of the marriage to discontinue them. But I appreciate that well-meaning suggestion too. And I dropped my Mensa membership early on too-- while a lot of the people were like me, I didn't like them or want to be around them. Draw from what what you wish.

Well, teenagers...and discipline. I'm starting to remember stuff now. lol One time my son, who must have been about 14, got ticked at me about whatever, and he yelled at me, "I hate you!" Oh, really? Well, I grabbed him, and shoved him down the hall to his room. He, of course, resisting all the way. Once in there, I got in his face, "How DARE you talk to me that way. How DARE you!!! Do you KNOW WHO I AM???? I will show you exactly who I am. Take note that I am the provider of all the good things in your life." Then I walked out, shut the door, and went down to the breaker box, and turned off his room. No tv, no stereo/radio, no lights. Then I remembered his phone...went in his room, and pulled the phone from the jack. (No cells in those days.) I announced that he would not be provided with dinner, nor breakfast, nor anymore food until he apologized,and learned to respect me for my position in his life. I also scooped up his favorite shoes, his best jeans, and a couple of other things. As I exited he dared to slam the door behind me. So, I went and got a screwdriver, came back, removed his door, and told him, "Now you will have no ride to school, no lunch money, no allowance, and NO shower privileges. I am retaining all of the things I do for you. Be thankful I am not throwing you out into the street!" He was so mad at me, he was red-faced. lol And frustrated. I could tell he wanted to really go off on me, and then slam out of the house. I figured I'd better nip that in the bud before he did it for effect and demonstration. So, I gave him the pointed finger in his face and siad, "I know exactly what you are thinking,,,and if you go out that door, I will go straight to the phone, call the police, and have you declared incorrigable. You will spend the next four years in foster care,and I will rent out your room and make me an extra $300 bucks a month!!" He didn't have the nerve to call my bluff. I told the rest of the household that Tommy was now invisible. No talk, no anything. Well, it was a Stand Off for a couple of days. The next day he didn't come home from school...I had anticipated that. I figured he would go to his best buddy's house to wangle dinner. I called the mother..I told her she could feed him, but don't let him spend the night. (I didn't want him to starve, you know.) After a few days of his stubborness, he came in one evening, and I faced him in the hall. I had my hands in front of me like, "What??" He kind of begrudgingly leaned into me, it became a hug. I started to kind of chuckle, and he said he was sorry, etc. And it was over and done. Now, the other three were watching this drama....THEY didn't ever want their doors off for smart mouthing,,their electric shut off. It was never much of a problem after that. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

have read thru a number of these posts, & as someone who has also contemplated suicide due to devastating emotional pain - I can only repeat the perhaps platitudinous saying that "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem." I myself have chosen to ride the wave of the furies of the emotional tempests by lashing myself to the mast, & yes, taking to my bed - and just living thru it. Mostly the worst only lasts a day or 2 - and then I can continue my quest to deal with my unruly inherited neural predicaments - which I do fairly well....before another attack comes on. No, my life isn't "normal" - I have had to be greedy about establishing my illness & my right to even HAVE it. Why is brain chemistry so little understood or even acknowledged by the greater society? It could very well be that the men you cite are going thru male menopause cold turkey - even feeling unworthy to ask for treatment. Why should this be? Such suffering is really unnecessary most of the time! One can introduce serotonin and endophins (among other things) into the brain for relief! Any why not? Is there glory in continual suffering - to the extent that men(or women) feel that they have to martyr themselves to it? I feel that our own life/death should be under our own control - & suicide is always an option. But is it the best one? I can only assume that these suicidal men are NOT nobly taking their own lives with honor in old Roman fashion.... The hell with what society demands of you - haven't you realized that most of it is not designed with our individual happiness or contentment in mind? Our bodies go thru cycles way past our reproductive years - men perhaps can get away with ignoring that - a la Hugh Hefner - but it's there nevertheless. In other societies elders were encouraged to develop wisdom. Do you think our society is in any less need of that quality? On the contrary, I think we NEED it more than ever - considering the pap the majority is being spoonfed....Read the great philosophers - Yes - you may find existential suicide there - but most of it will be muich more life-affirming...It keeps me going & I recommend it - I think it was the Dalai Lama who said something about how the influence of even one good man was incalculable. And I agree with him. So don't give up the fight!

HoldOn, Please read and think about what Frank has said; he has said so much that makes sense. I know how it feels to wake up and realise that you have made a mess of things, however the cold hard reality is none of us is perfect. To end it all is an option however it is not the only option and frankly it is not a very good one. Life is a very exciting journey and sometimes we take a wrong turn; it doesn’t mean we can’t get back on track. I have been there, done that and got the tee shirt. It is all so easy to look at the negative, when you have depression it is even more so. Pick one positive each day, even if it is something as simple as waking up in morning and focus on that. There are many positives in life if we look for them. I ask you to do three things: Stay alive. Find the positive each day. Read, think about and act on what Frank has said. Life has so much to offer and YOU have so much to offer, there is only one you and the world will not be the same without your presence. Keep us posted.

HoldOn, please don't rush to make such a final decision with your life. Life holds so many opportunities for us to experience joy and pain and learn, don't cheat yourself now. A wife and children are right for some people and not right for others, maybe your instincts were right for you. That does not make you a bad person and it does not mean you can't or won't find a woman who is a better fit. I'm surprised that at fifty even if you are in good shape that you would even consider the responsibility, work and effort involved in raising children. I started in my early thirties and if you do it right the effort is something you cannot imagine. Please give yourself time to heal from this heartbreak and when you feel better realize the limitless possibilities life holds. Please continue to post and don't be embarassed to reach out to friends, family or even strangers locally. Remember this saying " Good friends, they multiply our happiness and divide our sorrow".

I am struggling with suicide. I want to end this pain as it won't subside at all. I mad a mess of a good relationship and lost it and having done so, life has lost all meaning. I'm almost fifty, never married, and didn't want to marry the wonderful peron I was with because I did not want to have children -- too much reponsibilty, effort, and I didn't think I was worthy of them. She stayed five years then wouldn't take me back the last time I told her we were threw. She was engaged to a widower friend within three months and married within a year. Devastation and remorse don't come close to describing the pain that each day starts with and each night brings. Now I see that family and children are what matters, not money. To realise how wrong I've been is so tough and to know I've lost the woman I know now I want to grow old with is staggering. Thank you for this thread, I googled on "pain, heart break, and suicide" and this page came back.

Jed, Having read your comments I thought I would add some more things that have come to mind. I lost interest in most of the things that I did, cooking, furniture restoration, friends, family history and a number of other things. I just couldn't be bothered. If I went out for diner I was ready to leave before I arrived, the invitations stopped coming even from family; I just didn't care. Everything was an effort. I considered self harm, that would teach everyone or so I thought. I didn't do it however it was always an option as far as I was concerned. Sometimes when I am really down I still think about it because it would give me something else to think about. Really stupid, fortunately I have not done anything. I mentioned earlier that I started a journal which has been a great help. At the same time I started reminding myself every day, well most days, to focus on the future, stay positive and remind the black dog who’s in charge. I also bought a small toy black dog as a reminder that I’m in control not the black dog. It may not work for everyone, it certainly works for me.

Jed, I few more things that came to mind on the walk to work. I came very close to running away, that is the only way I can describe it. I booked and almost paid for a ticket to the other side of the world, I felt that if I just disappeared everything would be ok; the problem wasn’t with me. I can’t remember the number of times I threatened to pack up and leave. I travel by road on a regular basis with work. On a number of occasions I looked at a big truck coming towards me and thought, just cross the centre line and it will be all over. Sleep was an issue. I still wake up two or three times a night and just go back to sleep. Last year, and earlier, I would wake up during the night and that was it, I couldn’t get back to sleep. Sometimes I would only sleep for an hour or so. I would hide. I have always been someone who went to bed late, generally 11:00 pm to midnight. I started going to bed round 8:00 pm, it meant I was on my own and didn’t have to face reality; everyone else was the problem so why would I want to be with them. I would grind my teeth in my sleep to the point that it would wake my wife. I still grind my teeth and am looking at a mouth guard for when I am asleep, I have already damaged one tooth, and eventually it will be beyond repair. I also find at times that I grit my teeth, it is something I can stop when I realise I’m doing it however it is a sign of some inner turmoil. I was slowly but surely withdrawing from life, perhaps even reality, I didn’t realise until after I faced the fact that I have depression. Now I can look back and see these things clearly and see that they have happened all through my life. I still get the urge to hide however it is much less, if I go to bed early it is to read because there is nothing good on TV. Couple of after the fact thoughts to share. Unfortunately there is a lot of prejudice against people who suffer mental ill health through fear and a lack of knowledge. If I had a heart attack people would be really concerned about how I was progressing. If they knew I had depression the chances are they would not be so understanding. Many people who have not been involved with mental ill health can’t understand that it is just another illness which can be treated and is not contagious. I have depression, I know that and accept it even if I don’t really like it; who likes being sick? Depression is part of who I am, I am not ashamed of it, it is what goes to make me different to anyone else; there is only one me. At some point I hope that I can help others as the struggle to come to terms with depression.

Jed, I’m not sure if this will make sense, if it doesn’t let me know and I will try and clarify. Like you I was angry, my wife wasn’t good enough, my marriage wasn’t good enough, the children weren’t good enough; work was ok. It was everything other than me. In December I was taken to hospital twice by ambulance, I spent another day at the hospital and paid a visit to the after hours Doctor. This was all in the space of two weeks. I knew something was wrong, in fact I was really fearful because I didn’t understand what the problem was, and I had difficulty explaining it. I spent most of Christmas day and the following day asleep. The medical staff did all the usual tests, ECG, blood pressure, blood tests and couldn’t find anything. The only way I can describe how I felt was spaced out, it was as if I was outside looking in. My wife had been telling me for two years, perhaps longer, that she thought I was depressed and should seek help. Eventually I went to my own Doctor and explained what had been happening and asked if it could be depression. At that point I started my journey. I suffer anxiety depression. In the early part of this year I found it difficult to go out and do things. Sometimes I would be in a shop and have to get out because of an anxiety attack. When I went to the supermarket I would start getting worked up if I couldn’t find what I wanted, I found it very hard to make decisions. There are still days when I have anxiety attacks, anything can trigger one. Like everyone I have good days, not so good and really bad. Recently I had 22 good days in a row. Since then it has been a bit down and up however I know I can have 22 good days in a row, more. The one good thing through all of this has been the support of my family; I feel that I have improved the relationship with all of them, I am open and honest. I know I have bridges to build to undo 50 something years of damage however that will take time and I am comfortable with that. The other good thing was that I was able to function in the work environment without any problem. Why you may ask, there is not the emotional attachment at work as there is outside work.

Oh, yes, been there; done that; got not only the tee shirt but the baseball hat and the coffee mug. Finally discovered there's not much you can do about a lot of the things dragging you down. So ignore them as much as you can. Instead, cultivate a mania or manias and grab on like a torpedoed sailor going for a life raft. And whatever the mania, find yourself a band of equally fascinated monomaniacs who will form an alternative world or dimension within which you can live quite comfortably. Who knows? You might even turn your mania into a money-making proposition.

All these people seem to have one thing in common. They are all about them. They would do well to stop thinking about themselves and look for some way to give someone else a hand up. "If you want to find happiness take a detour through 'Usefull'." My qoute.

Vic, what a terrible thing to say about someone who suffers from depression..they are all about them. That's what makes a depressed person worse and sometimes drives them to suicide. You can have all the money in the world, a loving family, and perfect physical health, yet when you become afflicted with the disease of depression you cannot function. It is an illness, like a cancer of the mind. Please be kinder to people.

Thanks for writing this. Both my Father (47) and my father in law (50) took their own lives within the last two years. It's beena a terrible and confusing and painful place for me since then, and I've been trying very hard to make sense of what happened to them. I appreciate your words here, they have helped to give me some insight.

I am a male in my fifties. Late last year I had a number of health issues which were finally tracked to depression. Accepting that I have depression was one of the hardest things I have had to do, at the same time it was liberating. Everything wrong in my life was someone else fault. I came very close to throwing everything away. I did contemplate suicide and at times it still seems an attractive option however I keep backing away, why I don’t know; perhaps I just lack the courage or despair. Over the last eight months I have realised that I have suffered depression most of my life, in the past I was able to pull myself out of it, last year I couldn’t. The last eight months have been a journey of discovery. I look back over my life and see all the stupid things I have done and I am starting to come to terms with this. I also look at the positive things, wife and children; this is much harder as it is so easy to feel worthless. My wife and children know I suffer depression, for some it was not a surprise, and they are very supportive. For me the support of loved ones is very important. The other thing I do is keep a journal. Completing it every night helps me to get things out, to get some form of perspective; it is very therapeutic.

Cyrano, I read your post a couple of time to be sure I understood your reasons for contemplating suicide. You mention years of therapy and meds which lead me to think you suffer from some level of depression, then you throw in "is life really worth living" as if you've done and seen it all so why continue? When you say you are unfortunately pretty healthy, I had to laugh sorry. I struggled with health problems most of my life and good health is precious to me so your remark was outrageous. If you were trying to make an argument for killing yourself I think you failed poorly. You write as an intelligent person, say you are in good health and list years of volunteer work, heck after reading your post I don't feel worthy to live by comparison. You know you can arrange a living will so you won't be kept alive by machine or resuccitated against your wishes. A man with your intellect, physical health and history of helping others should be capable of finishing the journey of life and discovery without the need to end it by your own hand but it's your life.I just fail to see the need on your part to end it, maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand your argument.

Men often reside in existential prisons of the soul and society rewards me for being like the rock in Paul Simon's "I am a Rock." As a psychologist, I have witnessed men experiencing tremendous benefit from therapy groups emphasizing a deep level of self-discloure. This inspired me to write the following song: From One Brother to Another words and music by Dr. Bruce L. Thiessen, aka Dr. BLT (c)2006 http://www.drblt.net/music/onebrother.mp3 Bruce aka Dr. BLT, The World's First Blog n Roll Artist

Jed, your blog just touches my heart. I was sixteen when my mother tried to kill herself. I came home from school and found her. A year before my grandmother had died and I was alone with her. Needless to say, my teen years were not stellar. The note your father left communicated such yearnings, and yet he could not speak them to someone before that. How terribly sad. And yes, life is so precious. We need to appreciate it more, and seek help if we need it. Always, there is help out there.

Jed, everytime I read one of your blogs I feel lucky and blessed. I can't speak for other guys in similar situations but being retired I feel a loss of productive usefulness. I miss the social interaction with the guys. My wife is not the same passionate lover she once was and doesn't even give me the companionship I desire. Then there is the issue of my aging body and all that does to my psyche. When I go to the gym everyday there are the shallow "Hi, how you doing" greeting but there is no depth to those none questions. Who really cares how I'm doing? I can't burden my daughters with my problems, they can't understand and it would only upset them. My own wife doesn't care and friends get tired of hearing the same complaints. I have not contemplated suicide, I have struggled all my life to stay healthy and do not want to die at my own hands. I have given words of encouragement to others who have talked of killing themselves and I think I was of help. Unless I was in excruciating pain and terminally ill I can't imagine not seeing beyond my depressing situation. I sometimes imagine myself out of body and high above looking down and observing myself. Is it really as bad as I imagine? Am I not better off than many others? When I come back to earth I realize I am ultimately responsible for my mental disposition. Sure my wife could make me a lot more happy but that is not in my control. I know by the time we reach middle age we have made our share of mistakes and suffered any number of failures but that is in the past, we can't change the past. I accept what I can't change and try to do better in the present. I loved your paragraph that started " Life is so precious", beautiful thoughts and so very true. Thank you Jed.

Well Jed, Cyrano has just about convinced me to kill myself. He just makes so much sense that's it's hard to argue his points. I do agree with several of the points he made including women having a stronger bond to family and needing a reason to go on day after day. I admit it is my nature to discourage people who talk of suicide from going through with their ideas of ending it all. I base my feelings partly on the quality of life the person is describing and my own values. Cyrano just seems to be such a value with his combination of wit, good health and life's experience that it bothers me that he would consider ending it all almost out of boredum. Jed, maybe we men take ourselve too seriously and instead of taking each day as it comes we need to justifly our existence and once we retire and stop being productive or needed we lose our reason to live. I want that next day and the one after that too. I understand living with chronic pain and terminal illness, these conditions make more sense to me as reasons to end life as opposed to emotional motives. Ultimatley I agree that the decision rests with the individual and I would not be angry with Cyrano's decision to end his life, I would be saddened. I can only speak for myself with any certainty and I don't need a reason or to justify my further existence here on earth. I wish my health was better and it would have been nice to have the rich history of helping others that Cyrano speaks of but we are different people. Jed, my response to your question of doing more harm than good is for the most part we will do more good than harm by bringing issues like this out of the darkness and into the light of conversation. Maybe a person such as Cyrano will not benefit from these discussions because he has such an extensive background in therapy and has given the topic a lot of thought but for most men who are middle aged, retired and depressed the opportunity to exam their feelings and read your comments may be of enormous benefit. So you can't save us all, save those you can from taking their lives for the wrong reasons. Cyrano, best of luck with your decision and I mean that with sincerity.

"What do you think is going on for men as we age that makes so many of us want to end our lives that is different from what women experience?" My perspective is limited, but what the hey. 1. some are probably like me in that they look at life, on balance, and decide it's not worth living. If you go back to Nietzsche (as cited by Frankl), who says, "he who has a why to live can put (up) with almost any how," there's a big clue, but most people only look at the light side of that statement, not the dark. When you run out of reasons to live, or the reasons are not sufficient to support the pain/hassle/whatever of living, then suicide becomes a logical option. A young person, logically, can look at his or her life and decide that, even if today, there is no reason to live, the expanse of tomorrows, by definition, offers opportunity and therefore hope. For us older folk, there are fewer tomorrows. Also, it's my observation that older retired men who are engaged in something-- fishing, a hobby, travel-- are not going to be suicidal. Simply, those are their reasons for continuing to live. My father in law lives for his daily pinochle game at the old folks' center and the occasional game of pool. I envy him his simple pleasures. 2. Age strips men of the talismans of masculinity-- strength, power, potency. We make fun of men who seek to hang on to those (the bald man driving the Corvette), but what's the alternative? American and European societies don't value the wisdom of age, so when you hit midlife and you're not at the top of the career ladder, you're not considered valuable any more. Demographics may do something to this in the States, since there simply aren't enough younger workers to fill the slots, but American business will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the notion of keeping older workers on in non-leadership roles. They'd either rather eliminate the position entirely or hire a foreigner to do it for less money. 3. Men, as a sex, simply don't derive as much pleasure or satisfaction from family as women do. Yes, yes, I know there are exceptions, but this isn't just me-- I see it over and over again. You can love your children and grandchildren just as much but just loving someone isn't the same as getting some sort of payoff from associating with them. Hence, family bonds aren't as compelling a reason to stay alive for men as they are for women. "Do you think it is possible that in our desire to “help” by trying to give someone reasons to live, we may be doing them more harm? Would more people reach out and talk about suicide if they felt they would be lisented to and respected, without having someone try and talk them out of it?" Look, I think that people ought to be aware of the options and tools available to them. No one ought to take their own life-- or for that matter, undertake any sort of momentous undertaking from which there is no turning back-- without a frank, sincere, and thorough investigation into the facts. And maybe there are men who rashly commit suicide without understanding the situation or their options. But most people know about antidepressants, suicide hotlines, group therapy, and so forth. The only reason I'm willing to say anything here is the anonymity of the forum, so yes, I don't want to get into discussions where someone else is exhorting me to stay alive (sorry, Frank). Your friend, who was afraid that people would try to talk him out of doing it, probably correctly realized that it would be more painful for him to have to listen to the arguments and exhortations. I think this is a cellular, deep-level thing, that people who don't feel this way (a) cannot understand who those of us do feel this way; then (b) get angry at us for feeling this way. About half of my therapist relationships have ended in the therapist getting angry at me for not trying hard enough, for lack of character, or the like. It reminds of the joke about how many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb? only one, but the light bulb really wants to change. While I appreciated their honesty, it destroyed my ability to speak frankly with them. Anyway, "doing more harm" is a relative term. What constitutes "harm" for a person in that position? It sounds like you're still wanting to cure people of suicidal tendencies. What if, on balance, suicide was the best choice for that person in that situation? I recognize that, as a mental health professional, that thought may be anathema to you (and here I mean, you Jed Diamond). I agree that people in distress need to be able to speak freely about that distress. When I did suicide hotline work as a younger person, the first and most basic truth was to let people talk, never to try and talk them out of what their intentions were. I might be on the second phone, having the 911 operator trace the call, but that's different. For more than a few people, their ability to talk unimpeded was the greatest gift I could give them. If you can see reasons for a person to live that they can't see, then sure, help them see. But if they're merely platitudes, then don't insult that person's intelligence.

Cyrano: Someone I know recently lost her husband and her dog within weeks. She was inconsolable, and couldn't speak for crying. Everyone deserves to mourn, but after 6 months, others get tired of listening. What can one say to make things better? Finally, on her own, she got an older rescue dog, 8 y.o., and her entire personality changed. Now when she phones, she is laughing, I hear her talk to the dog, the change has been incredible. Sometimes the simple ways are more effective, Cyrano. Stop with the over analysis and psycho stuff. You have too much time on your hands alone. I say this with all compassion: Get a dog. If not a dog, then a bird, any pet that needs you and will communicate. If it doesn't work out, you can give the dog away, but you need some life in your life. Give it a try, it can't hurt.

I've just returned from burying my only sister. We had no warnings. There were no tell tale signs. Yet, she had been suffering for years. If I had known that, I would have done whatever I could. I never thought something like this could happen to my family. I only hope that anyone considering such actions will think about who they are leaving behind.