Today

Reason and Faith

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Since I’ve been on travel to a conference with very limited access to the Internet, I come late to reading all the many comments to My Personal Day of Rage. To continue my part in the conversation, here are some further thoughts.

You see I think that Reason is the ultimate platform, the one place where all can meet and talk to one another in a common language. There’s only one rule. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; no one is entitled to their own facts. So there is a Truth out there somewhere.
 
We all have our own opinions, beliefs, and truths. These come from our experiences, our  minds, and our hearts. They are internal to each of us, part of the little but whole world that each of us carries around. Yet, we live in two worlds.  We know and continually discover more of the material world, the world external to our inner lives, thanks to science and the scientific method. Reason is the bridge between the two worlds.   

So what is Reason.  Is it only what can be proved scientifically?  Pope Benedict accepts Darwin, Einstein, and the truths revealed by modern science. But he says modern reason limits itself to only what can be proven scientifically. God’s existence can not be proven or disproven using modern science.  (an aside.   The existence of the rules of physics,  the rules of mathematics and the rationality that pervades the universe prove the existence of God for me. All scientists depend on these rules for their scientific inquiries, but rarely ask where do these rules come from.)

Does that mean we can not use Reason to discuss religion and varying concepts about God? Not to use Reason is to say that all discussion about religion, about God and about ethics is subjective. If that is true, then God is whoever anyone says He is.

George Wiegel wrote

The pope's first point was that all the great questions of life, including social and political questions, are ultimately theological. How we think (or don't think) about God has much to do with how we judge what is good and what is wicked, and with how we think about the appropriate methods for advancing the truth in a world in which there are profound disagreements about the truth of things.

Carl Sagan wrote, “Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge."    Why can’t we use that type of rational inquiry in discussing God?  

The Greeks, as the Pope pointed out, thought  they could reason about anything and everything as the Pope pointed out.  Indeed the Pope says we must use Reason if we want to preserve the civilization we have been given.

In Socrates or Muhammed? Lee Harris explores the Pope’s lecture and the unique cultures of reason that have created western civilization.

[M]odern reason, despite its claim that it can give no scientific advice about ethics and religion, must recognize that its own existence and survival demand both an ethical postulate and a religious postulate. The ethical postulate is: Do whatever is possible to create a community of reasonable men who abstain from violence, and who prefer to use reason. The religious postulate is: If you are given a choice between religions, always prefer the religion that is most conducive to creating a community of reasonable men, even if you don't believe in it yourself.

Where there is Reason, freedom and progress triumph.

Herder's answer was that in Europe, and in Europe alone, human beings had achieved what Herder called "cultures of reason." In his grand and pioneering survey of world history and world cultures, Herder had been struck by the fact that in the vast majority of human societies, reason played little or no role. Men were governed either by a blind adherence to tradition or by brute force. Only among the ancient Greeks did the ideal of reason emerge to which Manuel II Paleologus appeals in his dialogue with the learned Persian.

 A culture of reason is one in which the ideal of the dialogue has become the foundation of the entire community. In a culture of reason, everyone has agreed to regard violence as an illegitimate method of changing other people's minds. The only legitimate method of effecting such change is to speak well and to reason properly. Furthermore, a culture of reason is one that privileges the spirit of Greek philosophic inquiry: It encourages men to think for themselves.

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 A critique of modern reason from within must recognize its cultural and historical roots in this Christian heritage. In particular, it must recognize its debt to the distinctive concept of God that was the product of the convergence of the Hebrew, Greek, and Roman traditions. To recognize this debt, of course, does not require any of us to believe that this God actually exists.

Defending the Pope

I was pleased to see that the president of the European Commission expressed disappointment that European leaders failed to defend the Pope.

Jose Manuel Barroso said that while Europe must take the threat of Islamic extremists "very seriously," it must not confuse tolerance with "a form of political correctness" that puts others' values above its own.

  On Faith 


A lovely essay from Maxed Out Mama, The Ringing of the Bell.

I will explain faith this way. Faith is not an answer, but it changes the nature of your questions. An answer would stop your growth, but the new questions fuel your growth. Faith turns your focus away from your own pain, frustration, worries, limitations and fears. Faith turns you toward the wider world, where you have the chance to experience the joy that reverberates through each day in our world like the ringing of a great bell.


Reason and Faith.  We have a great need for both.

Rob Rowe's picture
Jill Fallon wrote the following and I think it so encapsulates an independent thinkers viewpoint that these 4 pars ought to be the leading paragraphs for all discussions about faith and reason. Bravo. 1. “You see I think that Reason is the ultimate platform, the one place where all can meet and talk to one another in a common language. There’s only one rule. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; no one is entitled to their own facts. So there is a Truth out there somewhere. 2. We all have our own opinions, beliefs, and truths. These come from our experiences, our minds, and our hearts. They are internal to each of us, part of the little but whole world that each of us carries around. Yet, we live in two worlds. We know and continually discover more of the material world, the world external to our inner lives, thanks to science and the scientific method. Reason is the bridge between the two worlds. 3. So what is Reason. Is it only what can be proved scientifically? Pope Benedict accepts Darwin, Einstein, and the truths revealed by modern science. But he says modern reason limits itself to only what can be proven scientifically. God’s existence can not be proven or disproven using modern science. (an aside. The existence of the rules of physics, the rules of mathematics and the rationality that pervades the universe prove the existence of God for me. All scientists depend on these rules for their scientific inquiries, but rarely ask where do these rules come from.) 4. Does that mean we can not use Reason to discuss religion and varying concepts about God? Not to use Reason is to say that all discussion about religion, about God and about ethics is subjective. If that is true, then God is whoever anyone says He is. “ Discussion But most of the following points related to what this person or that person is reputed to have said or written during his lifestyle, about his view of God, religion and the world today and so on. No doubt many of these comments are important statements but, it might be agreed, they do tend to broaden the discussion a bit. There is no doubt but that these are people who gave great thought about the meaning of life and arrived at conclusions, which were influenced by their education and ability/opportunity to think independently, and conditions existing at that time. In many instances, they had to rely on items based on historical fables or wrongly assumed statements or translations etc. and so, with the benefit of hind sight, we can see that they may have been in error. But, the important aspect today is what do you think? What reason do you have for thinking that God exists? A viewpoint of the existence of God has to be based on a personal conviction with, or without, the aid of academic teaching, keeping in mind, 1 and 2 above, and the willingness to think about these matters in a meaningful way. Just as we are all doing now In my view, the likelihood of God’s existence can be reasoned into being, but this requires that you become explorers and are brave enough to question and reject those things which are unreasonable, regardless of who said or proposed them Remember, if something is true it will be unchanging – if change is apparent then either its not true or only true under some circumstances, and this needs to be recognised in terms of its importance to the circumstances as a whole. This is not a new approach – you’ve been sorting out the facts of living all your life, and, probably, needed to do so, to stay alive. The same reasoning process applies to religious or philosophical matters relative to forming a view on whether God exists or not. It is a personal inner search that doesn’t necessarily require an established religion, although if this is helpful then fine, but it should be kept in mind that being bound to a religion that promotes tenets that are untrue, seems somewhat pointless. Above all, you do need to be true to yourself. All social and political questions can be related to given theologies because this is the basis of all thinking down the centuries, but this doesn’t necessarily mean that these questions should be bound by religious limitations that, from my point of view, often tend to cloud the issues involved and can be shown to be mainly self supporting in nature. You may like to ponder on the thought that as I see it, Science and Philosophy are the two ends of the same stick – each with their own language - feeling their way to the middle. At the meeting point a common language will emerge and Mankind will have taken a great step forward. Indeed, there is Truth to be found out there, but Reason and Faith, plus Forbearance, are necessary aids in the search.
Morgan's picture
"And God created ....... " So who do you choose to believe ?
Sergeant First Class Richard Altman's picture
I continue to marvel at how much time and ink is used to rant and bleat about this guy's and that guy's omnipient, omnicient, invisible, make-believe friend. This invisible persona can do all sorts of wonderful things. However, when reason is applied to mankind's behavior in the name of this invisible spirit the blood flows and flows. I sure wish all this effort could be applied to finding an alternative to gasoline. Then the rag heads could butcher each other until one side or the other wins and that triumph will clearly demonstrate that their invisible, make-believe friend is the Supreme Being. I am a veteran of the Vietnam debacle and the Desert Storm dance in the sand. I have seen enough corpses to know - when you are dead, you ARE dead and all the invisible friends ain't gonna change that.
James Fund's picture
Faith and Reason are irreconcilable. Religious belief requires transcendant ideation or contemplation in a supernatural realm where nothing can be established and verified by rational thought and/or experimental procedure. When transferred from this realm into the natural world, the so-called truths of theology become absurdities. Historically, people who have believed these absurdities were more prone to commit atrocities as during the Crusades, the Thirty Years’ War, the Holocaust, Iraqia, etc. Therefore, if a person does not have both a logical and humanistic entitlement to a belief, then it does not have a moral entitlement to that belief because it can and has led to thoughts and actions that are inimical to survival, well-being and happiness on earth as opposed to bliss, beauty and perfection in a mythical afterlife. Faith, as hope, is not a strategy for an impossible salvation. There is no venue in the solar system other than earth that is capable of supporting human life. The stars are simply to far away ever to permit travel to them. The solar system’s dimensions when scaled down to human size (earth-to-sun distance of one meter) leaves the Sun 271 kilometers away from the nearest star which is then the size of a shirt button.
E S Harz's picture
I want to thank Sdemetri, and ask forgiveness for having thought that the Muslim faith was of one mind in their intolerance, and ability to follow the path of Jihad. It is a great help hear the explanation of Mecca and Medina, and know that Mohammed did not continue his path of Jihad throughout all his teaching. It has always been clear that in both faiths most did not take the time to really understand the faith. Instead some took one part of their religion to extreme, often a less important part, and made of it something that was not intended. We in Christianity have the Nicene creed as a tell-all proof of the essentials, but the faithful I know also teach that the Bible must be considered in it entirety. Almost any part taught out of text can be abused. I am told that in America the Muslims in large part are not taught the whole of their scriptures, and not encouraged to dig deeper on their own, much as the Christian church was for a time under Catholicism. The scriptures were kept in Latin and the priests chose the potions that would be shared. It makes for a dark time and beliefs that travel far from their foundation. I see this Jihad as revenge for the Crusades, done to gain dominance in the name of God. Neither understood that faith grows by reaching hearts. Opposition makes it easier to hold strong to one personal belief. Can the Muslim world really impose itself on the Western world by force? Can the rest of the world subdue the Muslim Jihad? One thing is sure hate breeds hate, and that cannot please God.
Harold Thames's picture
We have our opinions. And our opinions, beliefs and faith must & should be based on TRUTH. Only God provides the truth. And God reveals Himself in the Holy Bible, and reasons with us. It was God's idea to give us a free-will to choose. From the beginning, Adam & Eve had a choice, and made a choice. Based on that choice, we all have a decision to make. We can believe God or operate by our own opinion. Jesus Christ said "...you believe in God, believe also in Me." (John 14:1) So, if you believe in God, then you should believe in Jesus Christ, also. Then Jesus says "I am the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life, no person comes to the Father (God), except by me." (John 14:6) Jesus teaches the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:1 - 7:29), and He gives us several truths to live productively. In the Holy Bible in the book of Acts, the Apostle Peter said "Let it be know to you all...that be the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you healed. ...Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:10-12) In Romans, the Apostle Paul said "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) And how does God want us to come to Him? Paul states "...the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart (that is the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. ...For 'whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.'" (Romans 10:8-10, 13) When we do it God's way, He gives us eternal life. A free gift to us, one we didn't earn or deserve. God has great rewards for those who obey Him. (Read Ephesians 2:8-10) God sets before us life and death, and He tells us to choose LIFE! Please note that there are some 40,000 religions in the world. Each man's opinion of how to approach God. In the Holy Bible, God tells us how to come to Him (read 2 Timothy 3:16). So, God reasons with us, and tells us to choose His way or go it our way.
sdemetri's picture
Jill, I include below a reply I sent to some acquaintances who took your Personal Day of Rage post as further reason that Muslims in the whole are to be feared and thought poorly of. Much of my reply is taken from a post by Juan Cole on his site Informed Comment, regarding the large number of Muslim clerics who spoke out against Osama Bin Laden and the 9/11 attacks. I believe that the vast majority of the Islamic world condemned those attacks, and reasoned very clearly on moral and religious grounds that such actions are not advocated, or condoned by Islam. But as the recently leaked NIE and British intelligence reports make clear, the manner of execution of the so-called "war on terror," particularily the war on Iraq, has radicalized a whole generation of Muslims. In my opinion, the Pope quoting from a period of turmoil in Christian Muslim relations was ill-advised in our currrent period of turmoil. I wrote my acquaintances: Some declarations against Bin Laden, and terrorism by Muslim leaders. These examples are about a year old but are valid. Sorry about the unembedded links. The Pope's words were ill-advised, and ill-timed. I appreciate the fact he has reached out to Muslim leaders and is meeting with them. He should have known, given the leading military power of the world attacking Iraq, threatening Iran with nuclear weapons, conducting an indiscriminate "war on terror" that has killed more people, mostly Muslims, than the terrorist attack that started it, or combined over the last 25 years, might not appreciate a comment calling their religion violent. First off, there are some Muslims who are violent, just as there are some Christians, Jews, Hindus that are violent. Second, the ignorance the West seems to repeatedly show to the Muslim world, especially the war in Iraq, has radicalized a whole generation of Muslims. There was a great article in a recent issue of The New Yorker, I think by George Packer, that talked about a Muslim philosopher, now dead, but whose teachings lead a way out of Muslim radicalism. His years of study of the Koran brought him to the conclusion that Mohammed's life consisted of two distinct periods, the Mecca period, and the Medina period. In Mecca, Mohammed's religious views were forming, and being in the midst of a troubled city and period, his calls for jihad in the Koran reflect on those circumstances, on that context. The Medina period came later, and was written to all people and was centered around tolerance, peace, becoming personally involved with God. This philosopher saw this difference in texts as the answer to get away from violent jihad. He was killed for his preaching this message of tolerance. The following is from Juan Cole's site Informed Comment: "Tom Friedman is a Middle East expert who knows a lot about Islam. Why, then, does he keep saying misleading things? He wrote in his latest column, "To this day - to this day - no major Muslim cleric or religious body has ever issued a fatwa condemning Osama bin Laden." A "fatwa" is simply a considered opinion of a Muslim jurisconsult. Such opinions are numerous. First of all, almost all the major Shiite Grand Ayatollahs have condemned Bin Laden and al-Qaeda. You could say that is easy, since Shiites don't generally like Wahhabis. But they are the leaders of 120 million Muslims (some ten percent of the 1.2 billion). So that is one. Tracking these things down is time-consuming, but this should do: Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah of Lebanon condemns Osama Bin Laden. http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/bin_laden.html So then what about the Sunni world? The leading moral authority for Sunnis is the rector or Grand Imam of the al-Azhar Seminary/ University in Cairo, Egypt. Al-Azhar is perhaps the world's oldest continuous university and has been since the time of Saladin a major center of Sunni religious authority. The current incumbent is Shaikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi. So what about Tantawi and Bin Laden? Grand Imam of Al-Azhar seminary, Shaikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, condemns Osamah Bin Laden. http://www.usembassyjakarta.org/lawmaker.html And: The Grand Imam of al-Azhar Seminary, Shaikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, condemns Osamah Bin Laden. http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:NFEcFTKSzcUJ:www.chaplain.navy.mil/Attachme\ nts/SeekingMeaning_Grand_Imam.pdf+Tantawi++Bin+Laden+James+Reston&hl=en What about Pakistan? Admittedly, it has some clerics who are fans of Bin Laden, or at least who would avoid condemning him. But the allegation Friedman is making is that no major cleric has condemned him. Try this: Prominent Pakistani Cleric Tahir ul Qadri condemns Bin Laden. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/17/195606.shtml I don't personally care for Yusuf al-Qaradawi. He is an old-time Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood preacher who fled to Qatar and now has a perch at al-Jazeera. But he does have some virtues. He is enormously popular among Muslim fundamentalists. And, he absolutely despises Bin Laden and al-Qaeda. Al-Qaradawi has repeatedly condemned the latter. He even gave a fatwa that it was a duty of Muslims to fight alongside the US in Afghanistan against al-Qaeda! See also: Yusuf al-Qaradawi condemns al-Qaeda. http://www.islamfortoday.com/qaradawi02.htm There are also substantial Muslim communities in Europe with leaderships that have explicitly condemned Bin Laden. E.g.: Spanish Muslim Clerical authorities Issue Fatwa against Osamah Bin Laden. There are on the order of 250,000 Muslims in Spain. http://www.int-review.org/terr42a.html High Mufti of Russian Muslims calls for Extradition of Bin Laden. The Russian Muslim community is about 20 million strong, or 15 percent of Russia's 143 million population, and is growing rapidly, so that in a century Russia may be 50 percent Muslim. So this is not a pro forma thing here. A good round-up on this sort of issue has been put up by al-Muhajabah: http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php See also Charles Kurzman's page: http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm Friedman also does refer to a major conference of Muslim clerics, http://www.albawaba.com/en/countries/Jordan/185952 thinkers and notables wound up just Wednesday that made a powerful statement about religious tolerance and condemned everything Osama Bin Laden stands for. But he seems oddly unaware of the significance of having Grand Ayatollah Sistani, Grand Imam of al-Azhar Seminary Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, and many other great Muslim authorities sign off on this epochal statement of Muslim ecumenism. The statement forbids one Muslim to declare another "not a Muslim" if the believer adheres to any of the mainstream legal rites of Sunnism and Shiism. The whole basis of al-Qaeda is to call the Muslim leaders of countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, as well as Shiites, "not Muslims." The statement also demands that engineers should please stop pretending to issue fatwas, which should be left to trained clerical jurisconsults. This para. is also a slam at Bin Laden. PS As for Friedman's main point, that Muslims haven't done a good job of fighting jihadi ideology and terrorism, it is bizarre. The Algerian government fought a virtual civil war to put down political Islam, in which over 100,000 persons died. The Egyptians jailed 20,000 or 30,000 radicals for thought crimes and killed 1500 in running street battles in the 1990s and early zeroes. Al-Qaeda can't easily strike in the Middle East precisely because Syria, Egypt, Algeria, etc. have their number and have undertaken massive actions against them. What does Friedman want? And, besides, he is wrong that this is only a Muslim problem. In the global age all problems are everybody's. That's part of flat world, too, Tom."
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